Muslims the least educated in the world?

[Chev Chelios]

Yes women can't walk naked in Saudi Arabia and adultery isn't allowed, yes i know this is annoying for men who want women to be available as prostitutes and staring at them as sex objects, but education for women aren't forbidden and you know that the wife of the prophet was a leader of one battle and women worked as nurses in the battle field.

Women cannot drive in Saudi Arabia
Women cannot walk un-aided by a male chaperone in Saudi Arabia (not sure if this is consistently enforced and or if a males permission is needed?)
Women cannot travel without male consent in Saudi Arabia
Women cannot vote in Saudi Arabia (apparently this changes next year?)
Women cannot get divorced with her own volition without male permission in Saudi Arabia or if she can prove the male did something bad (very hard to do)
Women cannot represent their country in athletics/sport in Saudi Arabia
Women cannot swim in public swimming pools in Saudi Arabia (it must be women only pools)
Women cannot try on clothes in shops in Saudi Arabia (if that clothe changing requires her getting semi naked)
Women cannot open up a bank account without the sanctioning of a male in Saudi Arabia
Women cannot walk around with their faces uncovered in Saudi Arabia etc etc..

So can I ask - are you ok with all of this and either way - why do you think the Saudi's interpret Islam in this way?

 

[Shad]

Let take look at individuals one at a time. Let start with the Firnas.

Abbas Ibn Firnas designed a water clock called Al-Maqata, devised a means of manufacturing colorless glass, invented various glass planispheres, made corrective lenses ("reading stones"), devised a chain of rings that could be used to simulate the motions of the planets and stars, and developed a process for cutting rock crystal that allowed Spain to cease exporting quartz to Egypt to be cut.[3][4]
In his house, he built a room in which spectators witnessed stars, clouds, thunder, and lightning, which were produced by mechanisms located in his basement laboratory. He also devised "some sort of metronome."[4]
Abbas Ibn Firnas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So lets look at Lynn White's citations due to the amount of citations. No. 1910: 'Abbas Ibn Firnas which cites J. Vernet, 'Abbas Ibn Firnas. Dictionary of Scientific Biography. This book is very obscure with all copies signed out at this time in my area. I put a hold on the next available copy. For now lets look at Lynn White's Eilmer of Malmesbury. On page 100 Lynn makes note of Firnas.

"Perhaps some word ha reached Malmesbury along the the great pilgrimage road from Compostella of a more successful attempt at flight which appears to have been made in Andalusia about 875 AD. The Moroccan historian Al-Maqqari whi due d ub 1632 AD but who used many early sources no longer extrant, (22), tells of a certain Abul-Oasim Abbas b. Firnas who lived in Cordoba in the later ninth century. Ibn Firnas was a polymath: a physician, a rather bad poet, the first to make glass from stones (quartz?), a student of music and the inventor of some sort of metronome. (short description of the metronome). "Among other very curious experiments which he made," continues al-Maqqari, "one is his trying to fly. He covered himself with feathers for the purpose, attached a couple of wings to his body, and, according to testimony of several trustworthy writers who witnessed the performance, he flew a considerable distance, as if he had been a bird, but, in alighting again on the place he had started, his back very much hurt, for not knowing that birds when they alight cone down upon their tails, he forgot to provide himself with one." (23)

"This sounds as specific as William of Malmesbury's account of Eilmer's adventure, and it is amusing that in each case the crack-up is ascribed to failure to provide a tail. No modern historian can be statisfied with a source written 750 years after the event, and it is astonishing that, if indeed several eye-witnesses recorded b. Firnas's flight, no mention of it independent of al-Maqqari has survived." (24) Lynn further continues contradicting what is acceptable to historians by accepting the one source.... The rest of the book covers later work in flighted covering kites and machines.

(22) https://archive.org/stream/lespenseursdelis01carruoft#page/162/mode/2up which says nothing about the topic.

(23) Ahmed ibn Mohammed Al-Makkari, The History of the Mohammedan Dynasties in Spain, Royal Asiatic Society Books, 2002. Page 148. This is the poem.

(24) Is the translation of the poem by Dr Wilhelm Hoenerbach of the University of Bonn

That is all there is one source 7 centuries removed from the events with no other source. That is ridiculously weak to claim the man discovered flight or anything else the man is claimed to have done. This is what happens when you research using a wiki and do not check the source. It can be quote mined and distorted.

Class dismissed.

 

[FearGod]

Let take look at individuals one at a time. Let start with the Firnas.

So lets look at Lynn White's citations due to the amount of citations. No. 1910: 'Abbas Ibn Firnas which cites J. Vernet, 'Abbas Ibn Firnas. Dictionary of Scientific Biography. This book is very obscure with all copies signed out at this time in my area. I put a hold on the next available copy. For now lets look at Lynn White's Eilmer of Malmesbury. On page 100 Lynn makes note of Firnas.

"Perhaps some word ha reached Malmesbury along the the great pilgrimage road from Compostella of a more successful attempt at flight which appears to have been made in Andalusia about 875 AD. The Moroccan historian Al-Maqqari whi due d ub 1632 AD but who used many early sources no longer extrant, (22), tells of a certain Abul-Oasim Abbas b. Firnas who lived in Cordoba in the later ninth century. Ibn Firnas was a polymath: a physician, a rather bad poet, the first to make glass from stones (quartz?), a student of music and the inventor of some sort of metronome. (short description of the metronome). "Among other very curious experiments which he made," continues al-Maqqari, "one is his trying to fly. He covered himself with feathers for the purpose, attached a couple of wings to his body, and, according to testimony of several trustworthy writers who witnessed the performance, he flew a considerable distance, as if he had been a bird, but, in alighting again on the place he had started, his back very much hurt, for not knowing that birds when they alight cone down upon their tails, he forgot to provide himself with one." (23)

"This sounds as specific as William of Malmesbury's account of Eilmer's adventure, and it is amusing that in each case the crack-up is ascribed to failure to provide a tail. No modern historian can be statisfied with a source written 750 years after the event, and it is astonishing that, if indeed several eye-witnesses recorded b. Firnas's flight, no mention of it independent of al-Maqqari has survived." (24) Lynn further continues contradicting what is acceptable to historians by accepting the one source.... The rest of the book covers later work in flighted covering kites and machines.

(22) https://archive.org/stream/lespenseursdelis01carruoft#page/162/mode/2up which says nothing about the topic.

(23) Ahmed ibn Mohammed Al-Makkari, The History of the Mohammedan Dynasties in Spain, Royal Asiatic Society Books, 2002. Page 148. This is the poem.

(24) Is the translation of the poem by Dr Wilhelm Hoenerbach of the University of Bonn

That is all there is one source 7 centuries removed from the events with no other source. That is ridiculously weak to claim the man discovered flight or anything else the man is claimed to have done. This is what happens when you research using a wiki and do not check the source. It can be quote mined and distorted.

Class dismissed.

Whereas you have all the evidences that the Indians and the Chinese were the real heroes and Muslims only copy it and paste it in Europe.

Can't you realize how silly your attempts to dismiss the great works of Muslims in the field of science during the golden age.

 

[FearGod]

.

Women cannot drive in Saudi Arabia

Women rode horses and fought with the prophet side by side with men

Women cannot walk un-aided by a male chaperone in Saudi Arabia (not sure if this is consistently enforced and or if a males permission is needed?)

No verse in the quran prevents women from traveling alone, the prophet's wife led one battle as a leader.

Women cannot travel without male consent in Saudi Arabia

I don't understand the relation between such law and religion, but i think they are afraid about their girls to face any harm abroad.

Women cannot vote in Saudi Arabia (apparently this changes next year?)

No verse in the quran prevents women to be a leader, as i said prophet's wife led men in the battle, so how to prevent her from voting.

Women cannot get divorced with her own volition without male permission in Saudi Arabia or if she can prove the male did something bad (very hard to do)

Divorce isn't a good thing to think about specially if they have kids needing their parents to be united but in some cases divorce is unavoidable.

Women cannot represent their country in athletics/sport in Saudi Arabia

I don't think any one is interesting in watching women playing football, it is usually boring and not interesting even to women themselves.

Women cannot swim in public swimming pools in Saudi Arabia (it must be women only pools)

I don't see problem with that.

[youtube]rzHu9m-_PsQ[/youtube]
Women only carriages in Japan - YouTube

Women cannot try on clothes in shops in Saudi Arabia (if that clothe changing requires her getting semi naked)

Why not if there is a special room for changing ?

Women cannot open up a bank account without the sanctioning of a male in Saudi Arabia

First time to hear such a thing, women in Islam are free to use their own money the way they wish and she is even not requested to spend one penny in the house, it is only man responsibility except if she wishes to help then that depends on her.

Women cannot walk around with their faces uncovered in Saudi Arabia etc etc..

No problem with this, women themselves feel comfortable in wearing so.

So can I ask - are you ok with all of this and either way - why do you think the Saudi's interpret Islam in this way?

More to culture than religion.

 

[Godobeyer]

No it is from books. Cries of anti-Islam are valid if I was siting a wiki like others do here. I am not.

Walzer, al-Farabi on the Perfect State, 423
Stroumsa, Freethinkers of Medieval Islam: Ibn Al-Rawdand, Abu Bakr Al-Razi and Their Impact on Islamic Thought, 99
Goodman Al-Razi, Abu Bakr Muhammad b. Zakariya', Encyclopaedia of Islam, 474-477
Jennifer Michael Hecht, Doubt: A History: The Great Doubters and Their Legacy of Innovation, Page 227-230

You could read the few sources we have left of his book as well. It is split up into 3.

Books on the Ploys of the Imposters of Prophecy
Book on the Prophets Fraudulent Tricks
Book on the Refutation of Religions

where i find these books , "google encycopadia of books " ?

I bold the words , to detect where is the problem .

seems that you intersting to know islam , from anti-islam sites , good luck

 

[Godobeyer]

Hi Godobeyer, I agree that there are many factors.

But you should understand that for modern educators "memorizing the Quran" is a very weak approach to education. Trying to learn science from the Quran is also a very weak approach to education.

So even if all the poverty was fixed, traditional Muslim educational approaches are not strong. But also understand that modern education is better than ANY education used to be. So perhaps 1400 years ago "memorizing scripture" was the best education that anyone could get - at the time, perhaps it was "state of the art education".

But for the last 1400 years non-Muslim educators having been studying their craft and improving and learning more about learning and so on. Any teacher who claims that memorizing scripture is "good education" is just out of date. Maybe, a long time ago, it was good, it's now known to be very, very inefficient.

hi too

if you agreed that there is factors of least education in Muslims world , why you did not mention to them ?

you mixed between religious education and science education .

Muslim never educated science through Quran .

 

[1robin]

Whereas you have all the evidences that the Indians and the Chinese were the real heroes and Muslims only copy it and paste it in Europe.

Can't you realize how silly your attempts to dismiss the great works of Muslims in the field of science during the golden age.

Don't you realize how desperate it is to point out the few bright moments in Muslim history (in his case mainly because their competitors went backwards) in the attempt to cover up the majority of the time they have been behind the curve or under it.

 

[Godobeyer]

Sorry that is what I meant but I just worded it badly. i did mean certain muslim communities and/or cultures.

No worry

you right , i add to yours causes , "tradition"

but i guess from all the factors , the factor N° is poverity .

 

[Godobeyer]

So what you are saying is that most muslims refuse to follow Koran?

And only follow when they feel like it?

No, not most of the muslims refuse to follow Quran .

In Algeria most of citizens are muslims ,

the education for male and female is obeligation and free for primary,and free in university .

 

[vskipper]

Women cannot drive in Saudi Arabia
Women cannot walk un-aided by a male chaperone in Saudi Arabia (not sure if this is consistently enforced and or if a males permission is needed?)
Women cannot travel without male consent in Saudi Arabia
Women cannot vote in Saudi Arabia (apparently this changes next year?)
Women cannot get divorced with her own volition without male permission in Saudi Arabia or if she can prove the male did something bad (very hard to do)
Women cannot represent their country in athletics/sport in Saudi Arabia
Women cannot swim in public swimming pools in Saudi Arabia (it must be women only pools)
Women cannot try on clothes in shops in Saudi Arabia (if that clothe changing requires her getting semi naked)
Women cannot open up a bank account without the sanctioning of a male in Saudi Arabia
Women cannot walk around with their faces uncovered in Saudi Arabia etc etc..

So can I ask - are you ok with all of this and either way - why do you think the Saudi's interpret Islam in this way?

Because rather than follow the madhabs they follow the doctrine of Abdul Wahhab per the agreement made when the Sauds took over Arabia

 

[Chev Chelios]

Women cannot drive in Saudi Arabia

Women rode horses and fought with the prophet side by side with men

Women cannot walk un-aided by a male chaperone in Saudi Arabia (not sure if this is consistently enforced and or if a males permission is needed?)

No verse in the quran prevents women from traveling alone, the prophet's wife led one battle as a leader.

Women cannot travel without male consent in Saudi Arabia

I don't understand the relation between such law and religion, but i think they are afraid about their girls to face any harm abroad.

Women cannot vote in Saudi Arabia (apparently this changes next year?)

No verse in the quran prevents women to be a leader, as i said prophet's wife led men in the battle, so how to prevent her from voting.

Women cannot get divorced with her own volition without male permission in Saudi Arabia or if she can prove the male did something bad (very hard to do)

Divorce isn't a good thing to think about specially if they have kids needing their parents to be united but in some cases divorce is unavoidable.

Women cannot represent their country in athletics/sport in Saudi Arabia

I don't think any one is interesting in watching women playing football, it is usually boring and not interesting even to women themselves.

Women cannot swim in public swimming pools in Saudi Arabia (it must be women only pools)

I don't see problem with that.

[youtube]rzHu9m-_PsQ[/youtube]
Women only carriages in Japan - YouTube

Women cannot try on clothes in shops in Saudi Arabia (if that clothe changing requires her getting semi naked)

Why not if there is a special room for changing ?

Women cannot open up a bank account without the sanctioning of a male in Saudi Arabia

First time to hear such a thing, women in Islam are free to use their own money the way they wish and she is even not requested to spend one penny in the house, it is only man responsibility except if she wishes to help then that depends on her.

Women cannot walk around with their faces uncovered in Saudi Arabia etc etc..

No problem with this, women themselves feel comfortable in wearing so.

So can I ask - are you ok with all of this and either way - why do you think the Saudi's interpret Islam in this way?

More to culture than religion.

If you wish to glibly brush off the disparity between men and women in Saudi Arabia (and the Moslem world in general) as being a matter of mere cultural, rather than religious, influence then fine. But by applying the briefest of critiques to Saudi culture we quickly come to realise the glaring anomaly in such a point of view because it fails to explain how, in Saudi Arabia of all places, Islam can have had little or no real influence on its culture. See - it is plain to anyone who has been to this place and understands it history that Islam is intimately involved in its society, its history and has been the predominant factor in shaping its culture.

The patriarchal nature of Saudi culture is a direct result of the paternalistic ethos of Islam itself, which deems men to have been assigned eternal guardianship over the female. Thus, when looked at in this light helps us to better understand why we see such dominant masculine stewardship over females in so much of their lives.

But hey – it doesn’t actually say women can’t drive in the Koran so therefore saying women can’t drive is inherently Islamic right?. Well, sorry but I do not accept this – I can point out that it also doesn’t say that you should pray 5 times a day in the Koran either but this is an accepted Islamic precept is it not? Wait a minute – this 5 times a day business came from the Hadith did it not? Well in the Hadith we are told women are ‘deficient in mind’ and so if we take this fact into account and consider it in conjunction with the dominant male role clearly mandated in the Koran then I think we can quite easily propose the idea that the direction of the females life, which is so strictly governed in Saudi Arabia, has come about by the influence of the faith. We know this is true because we see patriarchy throughout all cultures overshadowed by Islam

It is quite astounding that Moslems like you still try and tease out any responsibility of Islam from all the problems with Moslem majority societies by using arguments based on technicalities to show Islam has limited or no influence on culture. This idea should be patently ridiculous to anyone who has travelled to a Moslem majority country or lived in one – where it dawns on ones self quite quickly just how much Islam permeates through the societies of these lands in a way I have never seen any religion do. Your ignorance, your bias and your duplicity when arguing about your faith is astounding and you ignore the fact that Islam’s doctrine clearly advocates its dominant role in society – which is what we see.

And just to clear up a few things you also said:

The fact that you say divorce isn’t a good thing does not give you or anyone else the right to make it incredibly hard for a woman (but incredibly easy for a man) to leave her husband if she so wishes. I also find it despicable that you have no problem with women having to swim and bathe in women in women only pools.

Worse evidence still of your support for female apartheid is that you argue in favour of the mandatory depersonalisation of women in Saudi Arabia because "many women feel comfortable with it". Oh yeah? Well how about the rights of women that don’t – and we can be sure many don’t. Without needing any evidence to support my hypothesis I can confidently put forward the argument that the majority of women in any society would prefer to be free to dress how they want and not how they are told – that you seem to not agree is shameful. I can also be certain that tehmajority would also 'choose' NOT to cover their face. Do you disagree?

You then go onto say that the laws which stop women from playing athletics for their nation is not a problem since no-one wants to watch female sport any. That comment perfectly captures the patriarchy of your faith and of you yourself. Good day.

 

[vskipper]

Don't you realize how desperate it is to point out the few bright moments in Muslim history (in his case mainly because their competitors went backwards) in the attempt to cover up the majority of the time they have been behind the curve or under it.

Christianity began roughly 34AD,.their cannonized book was not until 325 AD. The earliest manuscript of Paul dates to 90AD. The Christian Europe did not have its golden age until the 14th century. So roughly about a thousand years after the Bible was canonized. Then advancements nearly ceased until.the industrial.revolution which was led by individuals who tended to describe themselves as humanists.

Here is a better question before you go plucking at the sawdust. Christianity constitutes the largest of all religions in terms of professed followers. So why is the world stillrampant in poverty & starvation while so called Christian corporations make more money than most major countries?

 

[Chev Chelios]

Women cannot drive in Saudi Arabia

Women rode horses and fought with the prophet side by side with men

No verse in the quran prevents women from traveling alone, the prophet's wife led one battle as a leader.

No verse in the quran prevents women to be a leader, as i said prophet's wife led men in the battle, so how to prevent her from voting.

Divorce isn't a good thing to think about specially if they have kids needing their parents to be united but in some cases divorce is unavoidable.

I don't think any one is interesting in watching women playing football, it is usually boring and not interesting even to women themselves.

Women cannot swim in public swimming pools in Saudi Arabia (it must be women only pools)

I don't see problem with that.

Women cannot walk around with their faces uncovered in Saudi Arabia etc etc..

No problem with this, women themselves feel comfortable in wearing so.

So can I ask - are you ok with all of this and either way - why do you think the Saudi's interpret Islam in this way?

More to culture than religion.

Also - saying that because women rode into battle with Muhammad means that there is no reason for women to not be able to vote (despite the fact they are 'deficient in mind' and need a male guardian) is a non-sequitar and it is one that is merely your opinion.

Now - for my own interest – please tell me more about these women that rode into battle with Muhammad. I will not accept one off examples such as his wife otherwise I will rebut your argument with a simple ‘exceptions do NOT make the norm’ type of statement.

I want evidence that women were afforded complete equality in society by Muhammad and could be assigned the same roles as males. If you can’t do this you will have proved women did not have equal status to men in the time of Muhammad and couldn't do teh same things which, in consideration of Islam’s texts, means that this all lends great weight to my argument that it is for these reasons that help explain why women do not have equal status in the male dominated social system of Saudi Arabia in 2014. Thank you.

 

[vskipper]

If you wish to glibly brush off the disparity between men and women in Saudi Arabia (and the Moslem world in general) as being a matter of mere cultural, rather than religious, influence then fine. But by applying the briefest of critiques to Saudi culture we quickly come to realise the glaring anomaly in such a point of view because it fails to explain how, in Saudi Arabia of all places, Islam can have had little or no real influence on its culture. See - it is plain to anyone who has been to this place and understands it history that Islam is intimately involved in its society, its history and has been the predominant factor in shaping its culture.

The patriarchal nature of Saudi culture is a direct result of the paternalistic ethos of Islam itself, which deems men to have been assigned eternal guardianship over the female. Thus, when looked at in this light helps us to better understand why we see such dominant masculine stewardship over females in so much of their lives.

But hey – it doesn’t actually say women can’t drive in the Koran so therefore saying women can’t drive is inherently Islamic right?. Well, sorry but I do not accept this – I can point out that it also doesn’t say that you should pray 5 times a day in the Koran either but this is an accepted Islamic precept is it not? Wait a minute – this 5 times a day business came from the Hadith did it not? Well in the Hadith we are told women are ‘deficient in mind’ and so if we take this fact into account and consider it in conjunction with the dominant male role clearly mandated in the Koran then I think we can quite easily propose the idea that the direction of the females life, which is so strictly governed in Saudi Arabia, has come about by the influence of the faith. We know this is true because we see patriarchy throughout all cultures overshadowed by Islam

It is quite astounding that Moslems like you still try and tease out any responsibility of Islam from all the problems with Moslem majority societies by using arguments based on technicalities to show Islam has limited or no influence on culture. This idea should be patently ridiculous to anyone who has travelled to a Moslem majority country or lived in one – where it dawns on ones self quite quickly just how much Islam permeates through the societies of these lands in a way I have never seen any religion do. Your ignorance, your bias and your duplicity when arguing about your faith is astounding and you ignore the fact that Islam’s doctrine clearly advocates its dominant role in society – which is what we see.

And just to clear up a few things you also said:

The fact that you say divorce isn’t a good thing does not give you or anyone else the right to make it incredibly hard for a woman (but incredibly easy for a man) to leave her husband if she so wishes. I also find it despicable that you have no problem with women having to swim and bathe in women in women only pools.

Worse evidence still of your support for female apartheid is that you argue in favour of the mandatory depersonalisation of women in Saudi Arabia because "many women feel comfortable with it". Oh yeah? Well how about the rights of women that don’t – and we can be sure many don’t. Without needing any evidence to support my hypothesis I can confidently put forward the argument that the majority of women in any society would prefer to be free to dress how they want and not how they are told – that you seem to not agree is shameful. I can also be certain that tehmajority would also 'choose' NOT to cover their face. Do you disagree?

You then go onto say that the laws which stop women from playing athletics for their nation is not a problem since no-one wants to watch female sport any. That comment perfectly captures the patriarchy of your faith and of you yourself. Good day.

I suppose now you are going to just ignore the violent manner in which the Sauds took over Arabia? How about thedeal to follow Wahhabism in Arabia? How about the continual funding of wahhabi schools throughout the middle.east by nations like Saudi Arabia? How about the fact that every thing you listed is contrary to the overall example of the prophet & the teachings of the Qur'an?

But I suppose it is just a coincidence that groups like Al Qaeda & Isis are led by men who grew up and were taught the Wahhabi ideology

 

[vskipper]

To those who actually know the evil of wahhabi ideology, the history of how it came to be, the teachings of it & how it connects specificallywith the establishment of the Saudi family follows with perfect logc. And, to fail to have it in the discussion is to show complete ignorance of what is really going on in.the Middle East.

 

[1robin]

... again, another non-sequitur! You, sir, are on a roll! :clap

Is your avatar from that series of cat paintings where the artists slowly went insane?

 

[outhouse]

Christianity began roughly 34AD,.their cannonized book was not until 325 AD. The earliest manuscript of Paul dates to 90AD.

Could you stop and learn what your talking about before posting garbage?

Not one thing you stated is factually correct.

 

[outhouse]

Muslim never educated science through Quran .

They believe every word in the book as a general rule.


So now your saying muslims do not believe their own book, it must not be gods word at all if you throw it away and replace it with man made books.

 

[vskipper]

Could you stop and learn what your talking about before posting garbage?

Not one thing you stated is factually correct.

1.First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its main accomplishments were settlement of the Christological issue of the nature of the Son of God and his relationship to God the Father,[3] the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicaea, establishing uniform observance of the date of Easter,[6] and promulgation of early canon law.

2

.Over the last two centuries, there has been considerable debate over the dates of authorship for the canonical Gospels. Liberal scholars have tried to argue for the latest possible date of authorship (70-170 A.D.) while conservative scholars have tried to argue for the earliest possible date of authorship (50-90 A.D.).

The Date(s) of Authorship for the New Testament Gospels - The Encyclopedia - Zantherus Community

3.Church History
I said 34 ad as I was trying to give a year as to count as them.actually on missions & not still under the shadow of judaism

 

[outhouse]

3.Church History

that's not a credible source.

First of all, stop quote mining stuff your ignorant too.


Second canon did not start until roughly 400 CE ish


The bible canon was not really discussed at Nicea, even though 50 bibles may have been ordered there there was no canon at that time.


Then your lack of intellect and or are dishonest enough to say something about Paul, and then back it up with a link talking about dates of the gospels.


Quit talking about things your clueless about