My first post

[muhammad_isa]

Muslims have decided to tell the rest of the world that the Quran is perfect. This is YOUR claim that you ask the rest of us to accept.

No .. the Qur'an is from G-d.
You don't have to accept it .. but neither should you persecute those who believe it.

 

[Come2thelight]

To this quote, 'that one day Islam will own Europe by immigration, demographics, conversion and terror'

I don't see it happening mate.

Muslims hate us, but they want to live in our countries - note the mass migration of millons of Africans
Syrians, Afghans etc into Europe.

The only reason they are leaving their countries is because of how bad the colonizers left it. Karma bites.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, a quick bit of logical reasoning for you. I do not believe that EVERY line in the Quran is a problem. And I don't have to! All I have to demonstrate is that SOME ideas in the Quran are problematic.

Another approach is to try to understand why we see those passages as problematic.

I see it is always hard to look back hundreds of years and try to understand laws that were given to suit the age they were given. Our current mindset, was not the mindset if that age.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The only reason they are leaving their countries is because of how bad the colonizers left it. Karma bites.

It would have been great if both Christianity and Islam could have embraced under our One God, yet it was not time. We have now been given another chance.

It is Allah that unfolds the greater plan, as Allah so Wills.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Hello, I hope you're well. Thank you for your comments.

Hello

The Christians today can see all the evidence that points to how unreliable the Bible is. Even their own scholars attest to the Bible having changes and that a lot of the authors are unknown. So how can anyone rely on anything the Bible says?

Gospel accounts are consistent with regards to major concept and teachings.
The crucifixion of Christ, His resurrection on the third Day, the station of Jesus and His teachings are all consistent and there is no evidence whatsoever that they are unreliable.
I don't know where you get the idea the Bible is unreasonable.
Moreover how could it be logical to think Allah who is so powerful failed to protect His Book from Christians, when He is God, the most powerful?
I mean your story do not just add up. You say, Allah sent Jesus, because He gave Him a revelation so, He could guide people. But God, at the end failed to do His plan, and had to take Jesus up. The way you are describing Allah is like Allah totally failed.

Then, what was the benefit of sending Jesus?

No, i would say, this is wishful thinking of some Muslims scholars, because they wanted to say, our religion is best, our Book is perfect, but Christianity and Bible is corrupted. Then these ideas were passed from precious generations to the Muslims living now.

Every human being has their own personal account with Allah, how Allah judges them is based on their own lives and circumstances.

Yes, every human being has their own personal account with Allah. But this idea does not go as simple as that. Allah awards those who pray or fast. Allah punishes those who do things that Allah has forbidden. If the Bible is so unreliable, that means Allah failed to provide the guidance and Laws for them, and thus it would be impossible for Allah to punish or award. So, your version of Islam is just not consistent. This is just the ideas that came from Muslims scholars who said, Quran says the Bible is corrupted, whereas if you search the whole Quran, there is not even a single verse that says the Bible is corrupted. It only says, the people of the Book distorted the meanings and interpreted the Book according to their own wishful ideas. In this sense the meanings are changed, but not the Text itself.

Moreover in the Quran in several verses, Allah asks the people of the Book to stand by th Gospel and Torah. If these Books were unreliable as your scholars claimed, Allah would not ask people of the Book to follow.

There is a major difference here. Islam is not to a specific group or tribe. All other messengers and prophets came to a specific group. Just by that merit, this whole number 12 concept shouldn't apply.

Not really, because according to Bible, Jesus said He is Light of the World.
It is true that any Prophet came to a People. Jesus appeared among Jews. Muhammad appeared among Arabs.
But if we say, Jesus was only for Jews, then it means Allah forgot about the rest of humanity in those Days. This is a narrow view, and is not compatible with the Quran, because Allah cares for all humanity.

It doesn't go further than that. Those well-grounded in knowledge can be anyone. But to consider people from the past it would be the Prophet, his companions, and anyone that is well-grounded in knowledge that followed after that, until today.

You are giving me your own interpretation. I am interestedto know how Prophet Muhammad or Allah explains what He means by well grounded in knowledge.
Remember in the beginning you said the Hadithes are complementery to the Quran. So, let's see, how Hadithes explain.

It says he (Moses) prayed for water.




There are at least 50 prophets and prophetesses in Judaism. So clearly it's not just 12.




Jewish people believed in more than just 12. Don't read too much into this mate.

Dear, your own Quran says, Allah raised 12 leaders. So, now you are saying Jews had 50 prophets. No, that is the opinion of Jewish scholars, not that actually the Bible says that.

I'm not sure if Muhammad (saw) intended for Ali to be the first Caliph, however Allah decreed it would be Abi Bakr. And everyone gave their pledge to him.

Again, there is no verse about Abubakr in the Quran. Please bring a Hadith that shows which verse is about Abubakr, if you are saying Allah chose Abubakr.
But I can bring Hadith from Sunni collection that there are verses in the Quran about Ali!

 

[icehorse]

No .. the Qur'an is from G-d.
You don't have to accept it .. but neither should you persecute those who believe it.

Muslims take these claims out into the world. At any point, you can decide to stop making these claims and acting on them. Because when you act on them, various forms of violence and abuse of other people often follows. So it's not persecution for us to call "foul" when you make claims that negatively impact the rest of the world

 

[icehorse]

Another approach is to try to understand why we see those passages as problematic.

I see it is always hard to look back hundreds of years and try to understand laws that were given to suit the age they were given. Our current mindset, was not the mindset if that age.

Regards Tony

Hey Tony,

That's a good way to look at it. But sadly, many Muslims claim that the the Quran is timeless. Again, if they would just ease up a bit, soften a bit, things would be better.

 

[Come2thelight]

Hello, I hope you're well.

Guidance comes from many sources, wich one are you referring to ?

Guidance from the source of existence

 

[Come2thelight]

To start, women rights. I think we all know what I'm talking about.

Care to be more specific? What about women's rights?

 

[England my lionheart]

Welcome to the RF and enjoy,why do you think that the Middle East got all the prophets even though according to Islam a messenger was sent to all nations,im pretty sure they didn’t.

 

[QuestioningMind]

These ayahs in the Quran came to mind when I was reading this. Allah says;

Surely the Hour is coming––though I choose to keep it hidden––for each soul to be rewarded for its labor. Do not let anyone who does not believe in it and follows his own desires distract you from it, and so bring you to ruin.’ 20:15,16

The sincerity will go if God was apparent as the sun. The employee that doesn't feel like being productive will be forced to work if their boss is looking directly at their screen.

That's interesting... so you're saying that believers don't think god is actually REAL, like the sun or their boss at work. God is something they pretend is real but can ignore if they don't feel like being productive. That's kind of strange though since MOST believers I talk to claim that god is as real to them as the sun or their own parents. Apparently you're claiming that these people are lying and that no one ACTUALLY believes in god, because if they did it would 'void the test' as you say. .

 

[YoursTrue]

Hello, and I hope you're well.



If you mean everyone is free to believe whatever they want, then the answer is yes.

If you mean that there are multiple ways to salvation, then the answer is no. Salvation doesn't come to those that associate any partners to the source of existence. Salvation doesn't come to those that don't repent and change their ways and so forth.

There's a big difference in believing that someone substituted for Jesus as far as salvation goes or that Jesus himself was actually executed. OK well, have a nice day.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hey Tony,

That's a good way to look at it. But sadly, many Muslims claim that the the Quran is timeless. Again, if they would just ease up a bit, soften a bit, things would be better.

Yes indeed, we all need to ease up a bit.

I also see there are many aspects of all Messages that are timeless.

It appears most of the spiritual contention is over the aspects that change, or have been made doctrine by men.

If we could all practice the core virtues, Love, Unity, Justice, Trustworthiness, Truthfulness, Compassion, Mercy etc, what a world it would be.

The Lords prayer to me is Prophecy and that is what the virtues would produce.

Regards Tony

 

[YoursTrue]

Every Muslim is required to pray. If they hear a mosque, it would be better to go there and pray alongside our brothers. Praying in congregation amplifies the effect in a spiritual manner. If there is no mosque and it's time for prayer, they should pray where ever they are. And if others are around, then it is recommended that they all pray together.



Yes, as time went on, people started to introduce new things in the religion and this eventually broke off and became a wing. These sects are usually branches of other sects. The best way to follow is the way of the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh).



No need to thank me friend. Thank you for being civil. Please, always feel free to ask anything you want, even if you think it could be offensive. The best way to learn is to ask.

If I understand correctly, seems that Muhammed's son(?) became a situation in dividing the beliefs. So are you saying that it doesn't matter which set of Islamic beliefs a person sticks to in reference to salvation? Furthermore, the idea that Jesus did not really die when the Bible says he did is, um, shall we say, a bit offsetting when it comes to the theme of the Bible.

 

[icehorse]

The only reason they are leaving their countries is because of how bad the colonizers left it. Karma bites.

We see some groups of people recovering quite quickly from horrible histories. How long do you think we should give Islamists to make their Islamic Republics desirable places to live?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Muslims take these claims out into the world. At any point, you can decide to stop making these claims and acting on them. Because when you act on them, various forms of violence and abuse of other people often follows..

Yeah, yeah .. I see classic blame syndrome. It's always the other guy's fault.

 

[YoursTrue]

Every Muslim is required to pray. If they hear a mosque, it would be better to go there and pray alongside our brothers. Praying in congregation amplifies the effect in a spiritual manner. If there is no mosque and it's time for prayer, they should pray where ever they are. And if others are around, then it is recommended that they all pray together.



Yes, as time went on, people started to introduce new things in the religion and this eventually broke off and became a wing. These sects are usually branches of other sects. The best way to follow is the way of the Quran. and the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh).



No need to thank me friend. Thank you for being civil. Please, always feel free to ask anything you want, even if you think it could be offensive. The best way to learn is to ask.

Here's a question. Let's say a person is commanded by a leader of a country, or a group, to kill certain people. And now we know people "defend" themselves or get even personally by carrying a gun or weapon and kill others. Even here in the U.S. getting a gun illegally, then the trials begin when someone is shot or caught.
Would you think some doing these things could have reservations about these things, perhaps thinking that killing/murdering someone they don't know is wrong or questionable but do it anyway, either because of propaganda or pressure? Or infliuence by others, such as gang influence. This question applies to many religions. It is true, I believe, that God sees and permits many things right now, some of which are not necessarily in accord with what we might think is righteousness. But then that's what trials are about sometimes. So that question does not apply only to your beliefs about your religion, but it is a general question.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeah, yeah .. I see classic blame syndrome. It's always the other guy's fault.

and then it's left to someone else to decide and judge. Such as the "stand your ground" rule. Up to the judge or jury.

 

[YoursTrue]

Every Muslim is required to pray. If they hear a mosque, it would be better to go there and pray alongside our brothers. Praying in congregation amplifies the effect in a spiritual manner. If there is no mosque and it's time for prayer, they should pray where ever they are. And if others are around, then it is recommended that they all pray together.



Yes, as time went on, people started to introduce new things in the religion and this eventually broke off and became a wing. These sects are usually branches of other sects. The best way to follow is the way of the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh).



No need to thank me friend. Thank you for being civil. Please, always feel free to ask anything you want, even if you think it could be offensive. The best way to learn is to ask.

I was doing a little research about this. Naturally my beliefs are obviously different than yours. But here is some of what I found, link provided:
"...Every sect of Muslims has their own mosque in which members of other sects are not allowed as the members of other sects are believed to be kafirs and hypocrites. "even though the followers of all the sects offer prayers in the same way. There is no difference in the prayers"
Mosques Built On Sectarian Lines Are Not Approved By The Quran | New Age Islam Staff Writer | New Age Islam | Islamic News and Views | Moderate Muslims & Islam

 

[England my lionheart]

No .. the Qur'an is from G-d.
You don't have to accept it .. but neither should you persecute those who believe it.

Those who believe it persecute those that don’t is ok I suppose.