My first post

[icehorse]

Yeah, yeah .. I see classic blame syndrome. It's always the other guy's fault.

What was I thinking to associate divisive, violent scripture with violent, divisive results? My bad

 

[Come2thelight]

You are basically saying that Mohamed had zero faith because he didn't need it.

Yes, all messengers and prophets don't have faith as we do. They're past the conviction stage.

I'm not sure why you want to make a comparison. If, for example, it could be proved that greed/expansionism caused 1 billion deaths, but religious wars only caused 800,000,000, what would be the point?

That humans suck

I dispute that. Self defense is giving as only one reason to fight. Battling 'fitnah' and 'fasad' are also included. There is a distinction between defending your person vs. your faith. Verses 2:191 and 5:33 prove the point, don't you think?

You seem to be reading these ayahs out of context. This is why you hold such a view. All you have to do is read the ayah before this 2:190.

As for 5:33, it's right there in the text. "Those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger." meaning self-defense.

Mohamed had the entire Banu Quraiza tribe wiped out (after previously expelling two other major tribes). The men and youths were beheaded while the women and children were taken as slaves. The excuse is that they were traitorous, but even if that were true, the women and children were completely innocent. Is that not true?

They did break a pledge. And Muhammad (saw) didn't even decide their fate, rather he allowed them to pick someone and they picked a man from Aws who gave the command.

If you're not familiar with the story of Asia Bibi, a Pakistani Christian, you should research it. You will find that the country of Pakistan disagrees with your above statement.

Education is always the best way to go. Everyone is different.

Yes there is. Verse 9:29 to be exact.

Verse 9:29 says, "Fight those who believe not in Allah ....".

These ayahs start at 28 and end at 35. I believe ayah 29 is specifically referring to a particular battle (Tabuk). But in general they are centered around the people of the book and this command can't be taken in isolation. Back then, it was the age of empires and societies were all expansionists. Islam had to expand as well or eventually be crushed.

Today, such an ayah can't be taken literal because that would contradict the overall message of not being aggressors. The way to be effective and fight today is by learning and being a better Muslim, then they can educate others through empathy, love, and compassion.

Although I must say, it is our conviction that the world would be a better place under the law of God. All the poison that secular societies offers would be gone. Financial Interest for one.

A Saudi Muslim lady told me that in Saudi Arabia a person who converts away from Islam is given three days to come back. If they don't, they are executed.

There's no way she was arrested just for converting. She must have gone public and started to cause a rukkous. She should have just left. The world is a big place

You are saying that you know Islam better than the governments of some countries. That is quite a claim. How to you justify making it?

I never said I know anything better than anyone. I'm just a student of knowledge and from what I've gathered, everyone likes what's convenient. Governments too.

 

[Come2thelight]

Hello and I hope you're well. Thank you for sharing your thread. If you don't mind, could you please just name one contention and we go over it?

Yes, I have a contention, please see my thread here:

 

[Come2thelight]

And what to those that do not?

Then its just peace There's no point in wishing for blessings to someone that doesn't believe in it.

 

[stevecanuck]

... it is not true to say that just because x is a believer this automatically means they are more moral than y because they aren't a believer...

The Qur'an says exactly that many hundreds of times. How can you read a verse such as 29:68 without seeing it?

 

[Come2thelight]

Hitler

Would a Christian kill themselves? This is one of the gravest sins. Hitler probably thought he was a god.

 

[stevecanuck]

Show me one time in history where Muslims eradicated people please.

Mohamed wiped out the Banu Quraiza tribe of Yathrib.

 

[England my lionheart]

It would have been great if both Christianity and Islam could have embraced under our One God, yet it was not time. We have now been given another chance.

It is Allah that unfolds the greater plan, as Allah so Wills.

Regards Tony

How is that plan panning out and what is the plan?.

 

[England my lionheart]

Mohamed wiped out the Banu Quraiza tribe of Yathrib.

A real estate grab really.

 

[Link]

Yes, all messengers and prophets don't have faith as we do. They're past the conviction stage.

Salam

Satan witnesses light but disbelieved in it. He witnesses miracles but disbelieves. Mohamad (s) technically can believe or (he would be foolish to) can disbelieve, and think all the signs (including his own light and power), is not from God. He is been chosen because God knows he won't disbelieve. From one sense, because of his certainty, he can't waver. And this is why he is chosen as best creation and seal of Prophets (a) in the first place .However, from a "technical" can do, he can disbelieve like Iblis, but he is been chosen by God because God knows he will never do so.

Mohammad (s) out of all Anbiya (a), had the highest amount of certainty in God's signs. The highest sign of God is himself, but he wasn't aware of his inward reality till Quran unveiled himself to himself, and the journey in ascension, when he went beyond Jibrael (a), he saw highest signs which was his own light and he was immersed there in the closest reality to God.

Yet Iblis witnessed the light of Mohammad (s) before, and disbelieved.

He witnesses Angels (a) - the chosen close ones in particular, and yet, disbelieves.

He knows the Lord of Mohammad (S) can destroy him, yet plans to overthrow heaven. He had deceived himself that despite all destroyed cities, he will triumph in the final fight perhaps and he calls for helpers from Jinn and Humans, to fight the final fight and over throw the final of these "sorcerers" which are really chosen ones by God that acquire their power from God and they are not selfishly hiding their knowledge of unseen from others in regards to magic.

Adam (a) wavered in certainty in God's signs, and doubted the voice of God through the veils. But he quickly repented.

Nuh (a) questioned everything because he thought God promised something yet something else happened, then God clarified to him what he meant.

Allah (swt) wants to show, we might too doubt and waver, but must not be arrogant. Through Nuh (a), he shows, we too might be confused about something in Quran and waver from it but it might be just us misunderstanding and not seeing another possibility.

If Isa (a) faith was such that he was a pure stream and walked on pure light, but if he had higher certainty, he would have reached and flew to the same level of Mohammad (s).

They are all high the Prophets (s), but the different households chosen by God, they travel at different speeds to God. They travel together, the Ahlulbayts (a), but the Ahlulbayts (a) are all different speed.


The fasted speed is Mohammad (s) and his family (a), such that whatever creation blesses to them, that God can bless them and their souls being the exalted praised souls they are, will embrace those blessings and nothing is removed from them in that regard but only increased. "nor has he decreased" (wa ma qala).


This is due to their complete unwavering certainty in God and they receive sustenance from God and embrace it all with full power and utmost praiseworthiness and submission with respect to all blessings.

 

[Come2thelight]

Hello and I hope you're well.

I hope you know that your whole response still didn't answer why you think the Bible is a reliable source of information. But, I'll be fair and engage.

In the Christian Bible, the central figure is Jesus Christ, God's Son and Saviour. In the Qur'an, Jesus is a prophet, the son of Mary, but not the Son of God.

God had many sons in the Bible.
Adam was the son of God according to Luke 3:38.
David was the son of God and begotten! Psalms 2:7
Solomon was the son of God. Chronicles 1 17:12,13
and many more!

Paul even says that anyone that is led by the spirit of God is the son of God. (Romans 8:14) So why is Jesus only the son when we can see that there are more? This shows clear dishonesty from the Christian that wants to wiggle around these clear contradictions in their fake theology.

Son of God clearly means a term of endearment. Anyone with intellectual integrity can see this clearly.

If, as Muslims claim, the Bible was corrupted by men, then why does Allah say that the Torah, Psalms and Gospels are scripture?

We believe in the revelations that were given to their respected Prophets (pbut). The innovations are quite evident. Even the Christian scholars attest that there have been multiple alterations to the message.

Were the supposed corruptions not already in those biblical books when the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad?

Corruption is not only a written phenomenon but also corruption through practice and teaching. The teaching of the trinity for example is one form of corrupting a radically monotheistic message.

And, just as a little aside, was the Qur'an not revealed to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel

Yes, we believe so.

 

[stevecanuck]

A real estate grab really.

When Mohamed got to Yathrib there were three major Jewish tribes there. In only five years they were gone, with hundreds of them separated from their heads.

 

[Come2thelight]

Can you expand on what you mean by disturbing the peace?

If an individual was causing a rukkous for example. In this particular context, if they go and start insulting Muslims and the Prophet in public for example.

 

[Come2thelight]

Again, by supporting the Quran, you set yourself a difficult task. For 1400 years or so, Muslims have been misogynistic, homophobic, and anti-semitic, and anti-other-faiths simply by making simple, logical conclusions by reading the Quran.

People suck no doubt. Not like non-Muslims haven't been like that either. Let's be fair here.

Okay, a quick bit of logical reasoning for you. I do not believe that EVERY line in the Quran is a problem. And I don't have to! All I have to demonstrate is that SOME ideas in the Quran are problematic.

Care to share one and we can talk about it?

 

[PruePhillip]

I don't see it happening mate.



The only reason they are leaving their countries is because of how bad the colonizers left it. Karma bites.

So 'Karma bites' but you can't see it happening.

Really, how colonizers left them? England kicks the Ottoman Turks out of the Arab world in WW1. Did England then plunder
these Arab nations, or was it the corrupt Ottoman rule that left them poor, or was it corrupt post-colonial dictators?

 

[Come2thelight]

@TransmutingSoul

Hey Tony, I hope you're well.

Do you believe the Quran came from God? If so, do you believe it has been corrupted?

 

[England my lionheart]

When Mohamed got to Yathrib there were three major Jewish tribes there. In only five years they were gone, with hundreds of them separated from their heads.

I think it was 73 the first crop and of course the women and children as war booty,Yathrib/medina was a huge cash bonus and imo part two of the Quran,the Surahs of Mecca were peaceful but the medina ones were violent,robbing caravans in the month when it wasn’t really allowed and the first mention of jihad.

 

[Come2thelight]

these Arab nations, or was it the corrupt Ottoman rule that left them poor, or was it corrupt post-colonial dictators?

All the above really. Look at what the British did to Sudan and how they divided the people. Look how Belgium divided Rowanda. Look at the Spanish inquisition in South America. Look anywhere they've colonized. Even non-Muslim countries. These countries are poor yet they supply the world with the majority of natural resources? How does that work you tell me? Economically handicapped and handcuffed.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Qur'an says exactly that many hundreds of times. How can you read a verse such as 29:68 without seeing it?

It is not straightforward as you suggest.
Our intentions are important. How can we know what a person's intentions are? G-d knows, of course. G-d warns us about disbelief.

..and then again, it is possible that a believer acts immorally or is a hypocrite.
..again, G-d knows best about every one of us.

 

[icehorse]

People suck no doubt. Not like non-Muslims haven't been like that either. Let's be fair here.

Totally agreed. And if memory serves, I think I told you earlier that I'm no fan of Christianity either!

With that said, two wrongs don't make it right. For my money the Quran, the OT and the NT all ought to be forgotten

Care to share one and we can talk about it?

I seem to recall we disagree on the points I made using the first two Surahs as examples. I think that Allah's anger and cruelty towards the non-believers he created will almost certainly lead to Muslims having a divisive "us vs. them" worldview. I think this is bad, my recollection is that you have no problem with this. Correct?