My first post

[stevecanuck]

Taking ayahs out of context is one thing but taking part of an ayah is a whole different level of dishonesty. The ayah in full says

Whoever is an enemy of Allah, His angels, His messengers, Gabriel, and Michael, then ˹let them know that˺ Allah is certainly the enemy of the disbelievers. 2:98

This ayah looks a lot different now compared to what you are trying to show.

That only makes it worse. It means that unbelievers are automatically, by virtue of nothing more than their disbelief, enemies to Allah.

Your propaganda only works on people who have not studied Islam.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Interesting, because in 2 Corinthians 5:21 it says, 'For he [God] hath made him [Jesus] to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him'.

That's right. He is pure, and so was Muhammad.

Unintentional sin does not blemish one with impurity.
They did not know they were sinning.

 

[YoursTrue]

What according to you IS a path to peace and love?

I assume it is some kind of man-made ideology.

What is your understanding of a path to peace and love?

 

[icehorse]

More or less .. except that G-d is not a person, so the concept of G-d being "mad with somebody" is not as an earthly King would be.

And for @Come2thelight ,

All I'm doing is working with the claims that Muslims make, and seeing what logical (or on the contrary what incoherent), conclusions can be drawn.

So an important claim is that the book is perfect. That means EVERY VERSE is perfect, not just some of them. Another data point that comes up a lot is that in several places the Quran declares itself to be clear and easy to understand. If we're assuming the book is perfect, then those verses declaring clarity must be correct. So far so good?

Okay, so when the first Surah says Allah is angry with some people, it's fair for me to take that at face value. It's not some complex, otherworldly concept. He's angry, clear and simple.

I can't know the intentions of individual members of these groups.
What I can say, is that anybody who believes it is right to attack civilians, effectively "stabbing them in the back" is treacherous and wrong.

When it comes to groups like ISIS and Boko Haram, the difficulty that moderate Muslims have is that these more radical groups are using the Quran quite simply and logically to defend their actions. As for not knowing individuals' intentions, I think you're being disrespectful to the members of these groups. They CHOSE to participate in these groups' actions.

As we know, there are many violent verses in the Quran. If the book is perfect, we must accept the violent verses. These extremists groups are being completely logical when they follow the violent verses.

==

To me, the obvious answer here is that modern Muslims need to compromise a bit. It's clear that it's not logically consistent to claim that ALL of the following things are simultaneously true:

1 - Islam is a religion of peace.
2 - Muslims can live in peace indefinitely with non-Muslims.
3 - The Quran is perfect.
4 - Muhammad's life was perfect.

The first two claims are inconsistent with the last two claims.

It's for these reasons that Muslims often encounter skepticism or distrust when they encounter non-Muslims. The claims that Muslims make coming in don't hold up to scrutiny.

So, Muslims ought to simply reform their faith a bit. Like other major religions have done.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Your propaganda only works on people who have not studied Islam.

satan wants to cause enmity..
It seems that is your agenda, as well.

I believe in the Qur'an along with billions of other people.
Your comments only serve to encourage people to hate those billions of people for believing.

If you want to leave Islam, then that's your business.
To incite hate, you merely make yourself a target, along with all the others that follow you.
I guess that must be what you want.

Blame the other guys, and we can wipe them out.
You won't you know. The Qur'an is going nowhere.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What is your understanding of a path to peace and love?

Well, naturally to believe in righteousness and love your fellow brethren.
However, you can't love somebody who does not love you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Okay, so when the first Surah says Allah is angry with some people, it's fair for me to take that at face value. It's not some complex, otherworldly concept. He's angry, clear and simple.

It's fine to take it at face value. If you are a believer, you will understand more as you grow in spiritual understanding. One needs to understand the whole, and not verses in isolation.

When it comes to groups like ISIS and Boko Haram, the difficulty that moderate Muslims have is that these more radical groups are using the Quran quite simply and logically to defend their actions. As for not knowing individuals' intentions, I think you're being disrespectful to the members of these groups. They CHOSE to participate in these groups' actions

So what? Young people get radicalised. Education is important, and they don't teach Islam in schools in the west, and community education is often lacking.

To me, the obvious answer here is that modern Muslims need to compromise a bit.

No. No compromise is necessary. Education is necessary.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I specifically said apparent as the sun and not real as the sun. Of course, believers believe God is real and the highest level of belief we can achieve is conviction.



We are forgetful and can slip. That's the whole point. Sometimes a person is just lazy, sometimes a person just doesn't want to do something and do something else. So yes everyone is free to do as they please.



I made no such claim.

There are plenty of theists who claim that god is as apparent to them as the sun. So why exactly does god being as apparent as the sun somehow 'void' god's test? And wouldn't theists who say that god is as apparent to them as the sun also 'void' this test? And if everyone is free to do what they want, how would god being as apparent as the sun void the test?

 

[oldbadger]

Ok So only conjecture from you.

Ha ha!
Says a Christian!
You know nothing. All you have is a Faith based upon promises, and so you boast your hoped for heaven which is nothing to do with Jesus, if you would only but study the true gospels.

 

[stevecanuck]

satan wants to cause enmity..
It seems that is your agenda, as well.

I believe in the Qur'an along with billions of other people.
Your comments only serve to encourage people to hate those billions of people for believing.

If you want to leave Islam, then that's your business.
To incite hate, you merely make yourself a target, along with all the others that follow you.
I guess that must be what you want.

Blame the other guys, and we can wipe them out.
You won't you know. The Qur'an is going nowhere.

Tell me one thing I got wrong. Just one claim I've made that is factually untrue. And please be specific.

Let's start with the Banu Quraiza. Did Mohamed oversee their slaughter or not? If not, what does 33:26 refer to?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Tell me one thing I got wrong. Just one claim I've made that is factually untrue.

I don't remember anything you have said that is right.
You pick out verses that you despise and go on and on about you being a scholar of Islam.
It's pure nonsense. You can never speak for what Muslims believe.
You do not believe in righteousness.

 

[icehorse]

It's fine to take it at face value. If you are a believer, you will understand more as you grow in spiritual understanding. One needs to understand the whole, and not verses in isolation.

Over the centuries religious middlemen of many faiths - including Christianity and Islam - have made their livings interpreting scripture to fit the times. (I think religious middlemen ought to go get real jobs, but whatever.)

But we're all just human beings reading some words that were written down centuries ago. There is NO WAY to know what the original intentions of the words really were. OTOH, the approach I take is to read the words without a lot of religious middleman baggage attached. To read the words and make the most common-sense, parsimonious conclusions. Because really, that's how the VAST MAJORITY of people will read the words. So your idea of "growing in spiritual understanding" is really about the study of theology. And that's a valid field of study, no doubt.

But with all that said. it's laughable to imply that theologians have some sort of monopoly on what's spiritual. That's a rude, and unfounded claim. Given the obviously questionable morals of most major religions, their attempts to somehow "claim" that they're the keepers of spirituality is ironic, shameless, and transparently false.

If you're sincere, I think what you have to grapple with is how non-theologians (most people), will understand the scripture. From that perspective, the scripture is quite dangerous to society.

So what? Young people get radicalised. Education is important, and they don't teach Islam in schools in the west, and community education is often lacking.

Say what? That answer attempts to totally avoid the problematic nature of the Quran. As far as education goes, as I said above, there is no way to know that your interpretation of the scripture is any more accurate than ISIS's.

 

[stevecanuck]

I don't remember anything you have said that is right.
You pick out verses that you despise and go on and on about you being a scholar of Islam.
It's pure nonsense. You can never speak for what Muslims believe.
You do not believe in righteousness.

As I expected. You can’t come up with a single error of fact in my posts. It would have been less embarrassing for you to simply ignore the question rather than to draw attention to the fact that you have no rebuttal.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That answer attempts to totally avoid the problematic nature of the Quran.

On the contrary, it is not at all problematic for the billions of believers.

You will find criminals and madmen from all religious persuasions.
The reason why Muslims often lose the plot is due to their manipulation by political superpowers.

 

[ppp]

The reason why Muslims often lose the plot is due to their manipulation by political superpowers.

Your god should have done a better job of constructing his religion.

 

[sayak83]

Forgiveness is required because we all make mistakes. We see this secularly when we seek the forgiveness of others.

One seeks forgiveness when one does something morally evil that hurts or harms somebody. Then and only then. Not sure how disbelieving in a certain conception of God qualifies. People may disbelieve in many things that turn out to be right, has no bearing on moral rights and wrongs.

Since we were given this life without being asked to be born, nor did we choose the time, nor did we choose the family, nor the situation, then it is clear that the control is external from ourselves.

Not sure what control has to do with it. In my opinion a wise person does not seek control, as that is a desire of the ego. If God is wise he will not seek control either, as he too will not have an ego or desire to control anyone or anything.

Additionally, consider the proposition that we are an entity made up of a mind and a body. This body of ours is a machine, operating without our volition. We can't make an organ stop functioning by a mere thought. If we get cut, we heal. Furthermore, we are submissive to a system and any form of rebellion towards that system can lead to our demise. For example, lack of food, sleep, oxygen, etc

.
We are neither the master of the body/mind nor the body/mind is a master of us to which we submit. We are in symbiotic relationship with one another. The mind cannot exist without the body and body cannot exist without the mind. Most relationships are not about dominance and submission, but of cooperation and mutual give and take.

Since the body is already submissive to the system, as a sentient being and after deep self-reflection, I found it wise to submit my mind to the source of all existence as well.
Doing so brought harmony within me just like the harmony we see in nature. The key to serenity is to alight the body and mind.

I have noted above how real relationships have nothing to do with control or submission, but mutual cooperation among different equally valued members. And of course there is no question of controlling or owning living things. All entities belong to themselves fundamentally regardless of who they are and how they came to be. A God who creates but does not desire for entities to be free and self actualized as he is, is not a good or just God.

The individual that doesn't recognize this has been deluded by the material world.

It seems the same way from my side on to you.

Yet, people get reminded almost every night when we dream. That there's more to this existence. There's a reason we experience dreams compared to it just being a projection of our minds. Rather the experience is so strong that a person can still be under the effect of the dream after they wake up. When the body needs a time out, the mind is still active. Quite remarkable.

I am not a materialist, so this point is moot. The situation here is not as clear cut though as the brain is highly active during dream state.

So this tied to all that we experience through life gives me the confidence to say that there is an intelligent source to our existence.

There are better arguments for this, but I will agree in that point.

So back to my question. If a person doesn't accept God in this life, why should God accept them in the next?

Why would a God care about acceptance or rejection. Does God have a ego with associated things like desire for recognition, respect etc.? If there are people who want to live on their own without God, God can easily create well functioning autonomous world that do not require his intervention and place such people there. There is no moral justification for Hell or punishment for such things.

There is a dispute amongst Islamic scholars if it is actually eternal or not. However, it is the consensus without dispute that it is so long that it could be considered an eternity. Or since it does extinguish and the people just perish along with it, then that too could be considered an eternity. Because it is the rest of their existence. Allah knows best and may we all be protected from it.

Then it seems that Islamic conception of God is like a tyrants. Those who follow tyrants get rewards and those who do not go to gulags or gas chambers in this world. God looks like that. Why would one worship such?

The idea behind it being an eternal punishment comes from the notion that since the individual was hell-bent on disbelief and this wouldn't have changed, they would have gone an eternity this way, and therefore, they'll remain alienated from God forever.

People can change their minds many times in this life, why not in the eternity afterwards? Do they suddenly become robots? Further as noted God can easily create autonomous worlds for such ppl to live in.

There is no intellectually good reason to leave Islam. We can see this with those that have left. The crux of their complaints was always tied to emotions.

I am already seeing multiple intellectual reasons for leaving Islam..

 

[YoursTrue]

Ha ha!
Says a Christian!
You know nothing. All you have is a Faith based upon promises, and so you boast your hoped for heaven which is nothing to do with Jesus, if you would only but study the true gospels.

Actually you're making assignations about me that are not true. Whilst I am a Christian, there is a scripture that considers there are to be new heavens and a new earth. 2 Peter 3:15 shows this. "But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells." So I hope you consider that in the future when you are telling me what I believe. Plus I'm not sure what you mean by "hoped for heaven." Can you please explain what you think this "hoped for heaven" is, or what you think I think about this? Thanks.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, naturally to believe in righteousness and love your fellow brethren.
However, you can't love somebody who does not love you.

I'm sure many feel that way, we all have natural feelings. However, and it's a big however because it is not the natural way most of us respond, my Lord said that I must love my enemies. Do not return evil for evil.

 

[ppp]

However, you can't love somebody who does not love you.

I can.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

Peace and Blessings to all that follow the guidance.

This forum is new to me, and I hope to find individuals that demonstrate intellectual integrity and can provide a civil and fruitful discussion.

That being said, I would like to see if there is anyone that has contentions about Islam. I don't have all the answers and I'm a student of knowledge myself, however, I promise I'll do my best to provide the questioner with a satisfactory response, or the response can open the door to the exchange of ideas in a constructive manner.

I'm not here to convince anyone, because it is my belief that only God that can turn people's hearts. I'm simply here to view your contentions and hopefully, together we can clear them up.

Please name one major contention you have about Islam and we can discuss it.

Do you believe the Quran was fully protected from literal degradation and not the Enjeel or the Torah? Why do you think so?