My first post

[muhammad_isa]

We know that Jesus was without sin, because only a lamb without blemish is acceptable to God. The resurrection proves Jesus Christ's acceptability and unblemished nature.

Can the same be said of Muhammad?

I do not distinguish between G-d's chosen messengers.
I have better things to do than claim "mine's better than yours"

 

[Come2thelight]

Peace be with you Come2thelight.

I see I have offered enough, and I wish you well.

Regards Tony

Just answer that question please Tony and we can part ways. Don't leave now when it is getting good

 

[Come2thelight]

Name me one democracy that doesn't allow Muslims to fully, freely, and openly practice their faith or build mosques

Slovakia for one.

And there are countries that get sanctioned if they don't abide by the liberal and secular laws forced.

 

[Come2thelight]

Salam bro, I hope you're well.

From death.

You mean from Hell. And since he was getting respite, that means he knows he's going back. Therefore, there's no way for him to believe that he will win. His 'winning' is taking down as many people as possible.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Slovakia for one.

And there are countries that get sanctioned if they don't abide by the liberal and secular laws forced.

..and then there is France.
I understand that France colononised some of North Africa, which is not far away, so there is mistrust of Muslims.
..but there is a constant battle of wills going on there .. what Muslims can do and what they can't.

 

[Come2thelight]

..and then there is France.
I understand that France colononised some of North Africa, which is not far away, so their is mistrust of Muslims.
..but there is a constant battle of wills going on there .. what Muslims can do and what they can't.

#hands_off_my_sisters_hijab

 

[Come2thelight]

I've read the Quran and I've read about Muhammad, and I disbelieve the extraordinary claims about both. Does that make me a Kafir?

No, because maybe you learned it incorrectly.

 

[sayak83]

You seemed to have misunderstood. The body is already submissive to the system set up by God, we call it laws of nature. It is the mind that needs to do it too so that there is cooperation.

We were discussing mind and the body.
The laws of nature is not external to matter. The matter, by its self-nature generates these laws. For example, mass is an intrinsic property of matter produces the gravitational force. Same for charge and electric force. So material in not submissive to some external law, rather the laws are an extension of the nature of matter itself.

How so?

You are trying to conform your understanding of the world and God based on prior beliefs from the quran (submission, control, what is just etc.). That is deluding you regarding how the world really is like.

Because we were given life and that didn't come from anywhere but the source. Acknowledgment is the first step.

But what has morality to do with it. It may be wrong to believe that earth is flat, but its not immoral and worth punishing anyone for it. Earth does not mind and neither does God (if he is God) because lacking ego, he does not need, require or demand recognition.

No, rather these things are for the betterment of ourselves.

So.... explain again why God thinks its immoral to not believe in him in the correct way..so much so that the person deserves Hell.

 

[sayak83]

@icehorse

The majority of the time when you see the word disbeliever, this is translated from the word Kafir. Kafir is not simply a disbeliever, but rather one that knows the truth and works to suppress it.

I have read the Quran and do not believe it comes from God. Am I a Kafir? If not what is the Arabic word for my type?

 

[Come2thelight]

We were discussing mind and the body.

Yes and how the body is submissive to a system and any form of rebellion towards it can lead to our demise, like not eating or sleeping, etc.

So.... explain again why God thinks its immoral to not believe in him in the correct way..so much so that the person deserves Hell.

We aren't just judged by belief but by intention and action. Belief is the base for the intention which brings about the action.

I have read the Quran and do not believe it comes from God. Am I a Kafir? If not what is the Arabic word for my type?

زنديق a zandeeq

 

[sayak83]

Yes and how the body is submissive to a system and any form of rebellion towards it can lead to our demise, like not eating or sleeping, etc.

And I have explained how its not about submission but about symbiosis.

We aren't just judged by belief but by intention and action. Belief is the base for the intention which brings about the action.

Not believing the Islamic God is a belief. Let us assume we have a devout polytheist who worships many Gods and acts in her beliefs by praying to their idols each day. She has heard the Quran and believes it to be a false religion. Now, according to the Quran and the Hadiths, is this person destined to hell because of this daily worship?
More generally, what sort of intentions or actions are there that non Muslims are more susceptible to compared to Muslims that will cause God to send them to Hell?

زنديق a zandeeq

Anything about a zandeeq in the Quran?

 

[Come2thelight]

And I have explained how its not about submission but about symbiosis.

Submission is to yield to a greater force. We are yeilding by sleeping, eating, breathing, etc. And as I said, any form of rebellion can lead to our demise.

Symbiosis has nothing to do with this discussion.

She has heard the Quran and believes it to be a false religion. Now, according to the Quran and the Hadiths, is this person destined to hell because of this daily worship?

No, because we don't know what tomorrow holds and besides, more information will need to be gathered as well. Such as, do they believe that this idol is a god or is the spirit of the Creator residing in that idol? Secondly, what did she learn about Islam? If she isn't taught the religion correctly then she isn't burdened to accept it.

Anything about a zandeeq in the Quran?

No, because the word Kafir can also mean disbeliever depending on context.

 

[Redemptionsong]

A sin is only a sin if it is not forgiven. Once it goes on your bad record then it is recorded a sin. This wouldn't happen with the Prophet. Nor with any other Prophet after they got Prophethood. They're incapable of consciously sinning as we do.

What nonsense. A sin is a sin. If it's forgiven then God chooses not to take account of the sin. But one cannot argue that a sin was not committed.

If l steal, l commit a sin in the sight of God. I cannot say l never stole just because l have received forgiveness!

Can you give me an English translation of Surah 47:19?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I do not distinguish between G-d's chosen messengers.
I have better things to do than claim "mine's better than yours"

Do you not have a duty to seek the truth?

 

[sayak83]

Submission is to yield to a greater force. We are yeilding by sleeping, eating, breathing, etc. And as I said, any form of rebellion can lead to our demise.

Symbiosis has nothing to do with this discussion.

It has everything to do with the discussion. Breathing, eating etc. are natural processes of the body just as thinking, experiences, will etc. are natural processes of the mind. The mind and the body are in a symbiotic partnership helping each other to survive and to thrive. There is no greater or lesser here. The body cannot exist without the mind and the mind cannot exist without the body. A partnership of equals...do you understand?

No, because we don't know what tomorrow holds

She never changes to her dying day.

and besides, more information will need to be gathered as well. Such as, do they believe that this idol is a god or is the spirit of the Creator residing in that idol?

Creator is how the idol looks. Its a true representation of the form of the Creator. Its of course a representation (like the picture of a person is a representation of the person, not the person itself...but a faithful representation of his features).

Secondly, what did she learn about Islam? If she isn't taught the religion correctly then she isn't burdened to accept it.

She has been taught correctly. But after looking carefully at both Islam and her polytheistic texts she sincerely believes that Islam's God is a man made false God while what she worships is the true God.

No, because the word Kafir can also mean disbeliever depending on context.

Then which ones of the Quranic verses refer to a disbeliever who genuinely believes that Islam's God is a false God and one who knows Islam is true but is maliciously saying it is false? Can you identify? Seems very important.

 

[Come2thelight]

If l steal, l commit a sin in the sight of God. I cannot say l never stole just because l have received forgiveness!

That's why I said they are incapable of sinning like us. They don't steal and whatnot. A sin for them could be getting frustrated, forgetting the number of prostrations, forgetting to meet someone, and so forth. But they certainly don't intentionally go and do these things. But if they do, they seek forgiveness from their Lord and their Lord forgives them instantly. Therefore, it's not a sin because it was never recorded on their account.

 

[Come2thelight]

do you understand?

I get you, but you aren't understanding me. The body operates without you even thinking about it, nor can you stop any organ by thoughts. The body gives your mind indications when it is yielding to the system. ie stomach growling. This system we are submissive to despite our feelings. This is what I'm talking about. This system. The mind is not submissive to the system because the mind isn't physical.

Creator is how the idol looks. Its a true representation of the form of the Creator. Its of course a representation (like the picture of a person is a representation of the person, not the person itself...but a faithful representation of his features).

So the spirit is not inside? Just a picture? And is this girl part of Hinduism?

She has been taught correctly. But after looking carefully at both Islam and her polytheistic texts she sincerely believes that Islam's God is a man made false God while what she worships is the true God.

Then we'd ask to see her intellectual reasons and examine them.

Can you identify?

Surah 47 vs surah 109

 

[sayak83]

I get you, but you aren't understanding me. The body operates without you even thinking about it, nor can you stop any organ by thoughts. The body gives your mind indications when it is yielding to the system. ie stomach growling. This system we are submissive to despite our feelings. This is what I'm talking about. This system. The mind is not submissive to the system because the mind isn't physical.

Look at a person in a coma and see that without a mind the body can't do anything. Its requires the technology of modern medicine to keep the body sustained without the mind.
Certainly part of the body works according to the conscious thoughts that arise in the mind. That is how one speaks, walks etc. Similarly part of the mind (like feeling of pain, hunger etc.) arise in the mind because of the body. They are both partially controlled by each other and partially autonomous. That is why it is a partnership of equals.

So the spirit is not inside? Just a picture? And is this girl part of Hinduism?

I am not talking about Hinduism (I have created a thread for it...please check).
Its like a picture of the God, yes. But God can communicate through that picture to the devotee. (I am outlining a scenario here, do not misunderstand this with Hinduism or any religion).

Then we'd ask to see her intellectual reasons and examine them.

That is not the question. You may find those reasons not convincing, but she does. And suppose she does so all her life. Now the question is, according to Hadith and the Quran is she going to Hell because of her worship and beliefs?

Surah 47 vs surah 109

Please provide links.

 

[Redemptionsong]

That's why I said they are incapable of sinning like us. They don't steal and whatnot. A sin for them could be getting frustrated, forgetting the number of prostrations, forgetting to meet someone, and so forth. But they certainly don't intentionally go and do these things. But if they do, they seek forgiveness from their Lord and their Lord forgives them instantly. Therefore, it's not a sin because it was never recorded on their account.

Can you give me an English translation of Surah 47:19?

 

[Come2thelight]

That is why it is a partnership of equals.

Yes, I get that, I'm specifically talking about the physical limitations to our body. Which the mind is not subjected to. ie hunger, sleep, etc.

But God can communicate through that picture to the devotee

Interesting, maybe we should investigate more and become devotees too if that's the truth. A god in a picture that talks. Quite remarkable.

Please provide links.

Surah Muhammad - 1-38

Surah Al-Kafirun - 1-6