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My first post
- Thread starter Come2thelight
- Start date
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Anyone who needs to seek forgiveness has fallen short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23. 'For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;'.
Can you not see that this must also include Muhammad?
Come2thelight
Active Member
@Redemptionsong why are you using the Bible like it is a reliable source of information? Why do you believe the Bible is the word of God to begin with?
Audie
Veteran Member
Since you did not post the full conversation
I cant respond without searching it myself.
I did say something about the quality of
evidence, which you have ignored.
Along with confirmation bias.
Come2thelight
Active Member
Ya, the platform isn't the friendliest
What are the different qualities of evidence?
Indeed this is a factor
Salam
If you read Surah Jinn, with the coming of Mohammad (s), a lot of them realized they can't frustrate God nor escape him. This is because of how much heaven got augmented in power with Mohammad (s). Before they were able to listen to heaven and spy.
A lot of them submitted, but some of them still believe they can "frustrate" or "escape".
The Quran says "who fears the station of his Lord" - that paradise belongs to such a person.
That it names one god among thousands and doesn’t point to monotheism.
Audie
Veteran Member
Surely you know there's plausible, feasible, specious, dubious, sketchy, unreliable, incomplete, fake, misinterpreted and irrelevant,
among other sorts of evidence.
Theists use all of those as evidence for their
beliefs.
Quantity is there, quality, not so much.
More like zero.
You spoke of " delusional" as one with a notion
of what it means.
As you feel free to suggest it of others,
apply it to yourself.
And maybe consider how you would view
the quality of your evidence if your standards were adopted by a court with you on trial.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
As I have already said, it's the only book that has multiple prophets testifying to the same truth. With a single voice, all the prophets of the Bible point to Jesus Christ as the one and only Saviour of mankind.
The reason that the Qur'an does not fit with the 66 books of the Bible is that it fails to recognise Jesus Christ as Saviour.
Do you accept my summary?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
No.
..because you have changed the meaning of the word "saviour" from its original context in the OT.
i.e. the role of Messiah becomes a dying G-d
Come2thelight
Active Member
Salam bro,
When we read this surah in context and read what the Jinn is saying, he's saying that they were sincerely deceived all this time. They never thought people and jinn would lie about God and all of a sudden the sky was protected and they didn't know why and once they realized it (ie This Quran) they had an epiphany that no one can corrupt this message nor can it be escaped by those that deny it.
The next ayah 13 starts off with وَأَنَّا tying it to the ayah before and the subject is the guidance ie this Quran.
Come2thelight
Active Member
The Creator no?
Ha Ha. Once again, I'm working with the claims that Muslims make. Personally, I don't think the book is anywhere near perfect. So, what do YOU mean, when you claim the book is perfect? One debate I see a lot is that "perfect" includes (but is not limited to), being without error.
My personal perspective is that humankind won't survive if we insist on being tribal. There are too many of us and our weapons are too powerful for tribalism to be a successful long term strategy. And the Quran promotes extreme tribalism.
But back to the earlier point. As a Muslim, what do YOU mean when you say the book is perfect?
Okay, maybe we're getting closer to a definition here.. Are you saying a Kafir is someone who understands the scripture "correctly", but still does not believe in it? If that's the case, then I guess a lot hangs on what you mean by "learning it correctly"?
Come2thelight
Active Member
Not really no, and I'll tell you why.
You don't know the authors, to begin with. The text was recreated over centuries as the consensus of historians and scholars.
Torah - Wikipedia
Since you don't know the authors, how can we trust it? We can go through almost all the books in the OT and NT and see that the authors are anonymous.
Salam brother,
Anyone who fears God enters paradise. Anyone who believes in God, God guides their heart.
There's another verse telling polytheists to ponder, that, when the towns were destroyed, why didn't their "gods" come to their help? This is because right now the Jinn and devils were promising their Awliya (kaheneen) to protect them if Angels come to destroy them. They never were able in the past with destroyed cities, so Quran, is saying, why do you think now they can?
Remember, all this is in context of Mohammad (s) doing miracles and they accusing him of being a sorcerer or possessed by demonic powers. When Mohammad (s) revealed that there is only 19 Angels over hell, it increased believers in faith as they experienced help of Angels (a) in battle. They knew it has nothing to do with a numbers game.
Iblis might trick people and say look how many Jinn we have, and we are a numerous band, we can defeat Angels. But Quran is saying, there is 19 Angels can keep all the millions of Jinns that go to hell with no problem. Then it says no one truly knows God's forces but him.
Their power so far is hidden. Day of judgment, true power of God's chosen is known.
Some Jinn believe they can 'escape' when final show down happens or otherwise they would submit. Some believe they can frustrate God's plans and defeat the order of heavens and earth.
This is what they promise their Kaheneen. That they will stop the Mahdi, Isa, and others coming back, they will stop them and the Angels with them.
They are delusional in their arrogance. No one can help Satan and Satan can't help anyone, but this is their delusion right now, their deception to themselves.
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Come2thelight
Active Member
By learning it from Muslim sources.
Come2thelight
Active Member
I am not manifest to everyone, being veiled by My divine Yogmaya energy. Hence, those without knowledge do not know that I am without birth and changeless. Bhagavad Gita 7:25
How is this not the Creator?
