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My first post

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Makes no sense to say that G-d could "dwell" anywhere.
It makes G-d sound like an alien from another planet.


I don't know what you are talking about. We all have a soul from G-d within us.
G-d is of infinite nature.
A man is not of infinite nature..

God is able to make known his presence, his glory, at any time, and in any place. If you read the Torah, you will know that God made known his presence to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden [Genesis 3:8], to the Israelites in the wilderness [Exodus 33:14] and to the seed of Aaron, when clean [Leviticus 22:3].

The tabernacle, and later temple, was supposed to be the special meeting place of God and man. In 1 Kings 9:1,2 it says that when Solomon had finished building the temple, the LORD appeared to him 'the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon'. Again, in Chronicles 7:1,2 it says, 'the glory of the LORD filled the house'.

There are numerous references to the Lord meeting with men. Abraham, for example, met the Lord at Mamre [Genesis 18:1]. Jacob wrestled with the Lord at Peniel [Genesis 32:30].

Now, you're not going to tell me that the Jews do not believe in one God, are you? [See Deuteronomy 6:4]

On the second point, that of the soul, the Bible is quite clear. Adam was formed from the dust of the earth, and God made him a 'living soul' by breathing life into him [Genesis 2:7]. God is life, and His breath is Holy Spirit.

Think on these words of Jesus. 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' [John 3:6]

When Jesus was crucified, his body of flesh died. His soul, having been made alive by God's spirit, did not die. In resurrection, the soul is given an incorruptible, immortal, body in which to begin a new life [1 Corinthians 15:44].
 
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Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Hello and thank you for your comment.

I'm saying that the test would be null if God was a fact like 2+2=4.
I would argue that the greater test is to see if people can understand reality. If someone is 100% blind, I don’t fault them for not understanding daylight. However, for someone who can see and understand the concept of daylight, if they say it is night, then they can’t be trusted.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I would argue that the greater test is to see if people can understand reality. If someone is 100% blind, I don’t fault them for not understanding daylight. However, for someone who can see and understand the concept of daylight, if they say it is night, then they can’t be trusted.
Author of the koran didnt understand the concept of daylight.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The fact there were other people but due to a literary trope of 12, there are magically 12 people we know little about.
This

"Then Jesus summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to cure every disease and every sickness. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon, also known as Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed him."

— Matthew 10:1–4[17]
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
@Come2thelight

In Hadithes also, the number of Jesus Apostles is 12:

قال ابن أبي حاتم، حدثنا أحمد بن سنان، حدثنا أبو معاوية، عن الأعمش، عن المنهال بن عمرو، عن سعيد بن جبير، عن ابن عباس قال:

لما أراد الله أن يرفع عيسى إلى السماء خرج على أصحابه وفي البيت اثنا عشر رجلا منهم من الحواريين، يعني فخرج عليهم من عين في البيت ورأسه يقطر ماء
البداية والنهاية/الجزء الثاني/ذكر رفع عيسى عليه السلام إلى السماء - ويكي مصدر

Abi Hatim Narrated from Ahmid ibn Sanan, from Abu Muawiyyah, from ....Ibni Abbas: "When Allah raised Jesus to Heaven, He chose 12 apostles from His companions..."


And even in Sunni Hadith collections it is said:


The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs, all of them from Quraysh." Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) said: "This matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs." He then whispered a sentence.

Hadith of the Twelve Successors - Wikipedia


Why is this important?


Because Allah said in the Quran:

"So, when We recite it, follow thou its recitation
Then upon Us is its clarification" 75:18-19

This verse tells us, clarification of the meaning of its verses is by God. So, for that reason, He appointed Successors and gave then knowledge of the Book, to clarify its interpretation for mankind.

"And those who misbelieve say, 'Thou art not sent!' Say, 'God is witness enough between me and you; and so is he who has the knowledge of the Book!" 13:43

According to Hadithes this verse, He Who has knowledge of the Book is Ali
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
To tackle your question, this ties into the notion of the test that Islam holds. The Quran states that Allah created death and life to test us in our actions (67:2). Had Allah been known, then there would be no test. People would not act sincerely based upon their desires had Allah been visible as the sun. For example, a robber would not rob a bank knowing for sure they'd get caught, unless they want to get caught.

And don't you think that an all powerfull, all knowing being like Allah would be able to distinguish such pretenders from sincere folks?


Similarly, an employee that doesn't feel like doing work will be productive if their boss is looking directly at their screen. They'll stay at it until the boss leaves.

And as a boss myself, I can tell you that it would be childsplay to distinguish such workers with actual sincerely motivated workers. And as a boss myself, I can guarantee you to such workers wouldn't be on my payroll very long.


Had Allah been a fact like 2+2=4 then that would leave no room for other possibilities, and it would remove the concept of faith. One doesn't believe in facts, rather they just know them.

True. And why would you believe anything that isn't somehow based in fact (evidence)?
If this all knowing god is real, then I'ld expect such an entity to prefer rationality and rational belief over irrationality and irrational belief. It would value reason.

And believing things without evidence, not based in fact, is not reasonable nor rational.

Furthermore, what you are saying here is that the thing that matters in the "test" is people's sincerity in terms of intent and underlying motivations for the decisions they make and the actions they engage in.

It seems to me that if that is the case, then the specific religious details and tales and stuff are completely irrelevant. In fact, following your own logic, an entire book dedicated to "warning" wrong doers by threatening them with eternal torment, or rewarding "right doers" with eternal bliss", would, in fact, accomplish exactly that which you are saying is supposed to be avoided: that people aren't sincere in their actions and they instead engage in them for selfish reasons (ie: NOT being subject to eternal torment or being rewarded with eternal bliss).

So a believing muslim doesn't rob a bank "because the religion says it's no good" and he doesn't want to go to hell. Is that a good motivation?

Meanwhile, the non-believing atheist doesn't rob a bank because <insert actual reasoned moral argument concerning societal health / security / empathy etc>.

Who then has the superior moral values here? The one who does things for eternal reward or to avoid eternal doom? Or the one who doesn't believe in either and just does good for the sake of doing good, because being moral is its own reward?

So really, the way I see it, if we were to take your logic on this issue and drive it home.... then islam shouldn't even exist.

We also have to be real, there are a lot of people that wouldn't be able to mentally take such a phenomenon.

Why?
Isn't the allmighty, allknowing omnipotent creator of the universe capable of communicating or manifesting in such a way that our brains aren't fried?

Sounds a bit like a contradiction, doesn't it...

Lastly, one can make an argument that the inner dialogs that humans have could come from an angelic voice. Allah knows best.

Imo, one can make a much better argument that the phenomenon is also known as "thinking" and "empathy".
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
What was asked is that do you think that people are really killing others due to what people say they believe, or would it be more about tribal power and wealth?

People kill for all kinds of motivations. And religion is one of many.
In conversations such as this one, the apologetic usually tries to divert attention to the "other" reasons why people kill. In some kind of "welll...they do it too!!!" thingy. As if it somehow excuses religiously inspired killings or makes them "less bad" or whatever.

It is off course nonsense and nothing but, indeed, a distraction.
The topic is religion and if people kill as a direct result of being motivated by religious beliefs. And they obviously do. Regardless of any other motivations that exist for why people might turn to killing.

It's not a contest and "other motivations" aren't the topic either.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
But I totally understand your point. You see that people feel the need to impose their beliefs on others. But this is not only on religions but rather most values people have. So can we be fair here and say that people are bad and not religion? Since there is no religion that teaches the killing of innocent people, it should be quite clear, that people have used religion as a cover.

When they kill for communism, then communism is bad.
When they kill for religion X, then "religion X is just a cover"?

I smell a double standard.

Here's the way I see it: they are all bad. But what is bad isn't the ideologies per say. They can, and many are, quite disgusting - to be frank.

What's really bad, and common to pretty much all those things, is the dogmatic belief in it. The closed mindedness. The blind following to the point that you'ld rather die then to co-exist.

Dogmatism is the problem.
Regardless of the ideology/religion - dogmatism is never the path forward.

It cripples learning, free thought, debate and ultimately: progress.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Here's a clue .. many people say not to discuss religion and politics. It is not an accident that they are grouped together in this way!

It's because those are two things humans usually have strong opinions about and can even get quite passionate about it.

And the problem is that many people aren't capable of having a reasonable open conversation about it, without it ending with an emotionally charged punch in the nose.
 
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