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My God Why have you forsaken me
- Thread starter idav
- Start date
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
What's this got to do with the topic?
Why are you even debating the issue, if you don't believe God exists?
What do you expect to gain from it?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
And what does this have to do with debating the issue?
Who said it was a prerequisite to believe in "God" in order to hold a theological discussion?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I find discussion with non-believers to be little more than word game.
The real issues become quickly diluted in the play.
Theological discussions should result in more definitive belief.
All to often the participants chase around the words....
rather than conviction and belief.
But then there's that problem of saying straight forward...
And the other guy thinks you're 'preaching'.
If the non-believer was really interested in 'learning'....
complaints and accusations would simply not be used.
Shall we now go back to the 'silence'?
waitasec
Veteran Member
i don't know... ask thief....
he's trying to change the topic and it seems that you are too
because i have a right to...
so i suggest you should get used to disappointment
waitasec
Veteran Member
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I can engage anyone here dealing with religions traditions, language, translations, interpretation etc...etc....all the while not presenting my belief or lack thereof. I was just in a debate in another thread and the person actually had to ask what my belief was. A Muslim member here some time ago actually thought I was a Muslim because how I argued so vehemently over the correct way to translate a particular Surah and Ayat. So debating with non-believers is not as round about as you think. I personally think the issue with some theist is the fact that they can't convert....ehh hmm, I mean..."convince" us. I als find that most non-theist seem to know more about a particular faith than the person practicing said faith....
The scriptures pegs it this way: Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
How to interpret that verse: the word "sanctuary" = a place of refuge as in:
The word "rock"
sa 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge. here we see them both, sanctuary and rock meaning the same thing, yet, rock can be an offense, a stone of stumbling.
How many of us stumble at the words of Jesus? Are...... our hearts in need of being dashed with a rock to the breaking so that the spirit of God can come in and mend it with His love?
Blessings, AJ
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I'm sorry? What disappointment would that be?
As I say, what do you expect to gain from it?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
And faith needs no proving.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
So you do understand ...choosing your words.
At this point, the topic is indeed digressed.
If you review my previous posts, I think you will find my point.
If you review the counter points.....you will see word games.
waitasec
Veteran Member
waitasec
Veteran Member
exactly...
waitasec
Veteran Member
idea
Question Everything
Jesus was quoting his great grandfather when he said those lines - He had read Psalms 22, he was fulfilling prophecy.
(Old Testament | Psalms 22:1)
1 MY God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mormons do not believe in the trinity - but instead believe that Jesus and Heavenly Father are two separate beings - that Jesus did not pray to himself, or forsake himself, or ascend to himself - (not my will but thine be done - two different wills - not my will but my other will be done? doesn't make sense if they are the same person) that there are two different beings here, that Jesus is the son of God. I think Jesus and God are very close to one another, that God's spirit was always with Jesus to help teach and guide him - but that the atonement required Jesus sacrifice on his own.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brother Skousen related an account from the Civil War which was instrumental for me in understanding the atonement. The account is as follows:
“There was a boy fighting in the Union Forces. 19 years old. Went to sleep on guard duty. And the opposition broke through and wiped out a whole flank of the army. Several hundred were killed, including some of the best friends of this young man. But he survived. Court-martialed. Sentenced to die. He expected to die. He thought it was only just that he die. And president Lincoln was ready to sign his death warrant for his execution and a little mother appears on the scene.
She says, “President Lincoln, when this war started, I had a husband and six sons. First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons. Now I only have one son left and he’s sentenced to be executed with a firing squad because he went to sleep. He feels awfully badly, he lost some of his best friends and he expects to die. President Lincoln, I’m not asking for the sparing of this boy’s life for his sake, but for his mother’s sake. He’s all I have left. For my sake could you spare him?” President Lincoln said, “For your sake, little mother, I will spare him.” And as far as I know President Lincoln was never criticized for that decision.”
The reason that president Lincoln was not criticized for letting the 19yo off the hook was because a great sacrifice had been made. It was no longer about what the 19yo did, it was now about the sacrifice that was made by his mother. Like this little mother, our Heavenly Father has made a infinite and eternal sacrifice – He has given His only begotten Son that we might live. Justice demands that Heavenly Father be compensated for His great sacrifice, just as justice demanded that the little mother be compensated for her loss. Without the atonement, we would have just cause to refuse forgiveness to those who were unable to make recompense for their transgressions. With the atonement, there is just cause for everyone to forgive everyone else. We forgive one another because refusing forgiveness would be the same as refusing to acknowledge the great sacrifice that was made by our beloved Savior. The Atonement provides the way for all of us to be forgiven of our sins and live forever with God.
sacrifice is willingly, freely, given - no strings attached... God forsaking Jesus was making sure that there were no strings attached - the sacrifice was given willingly & independently from Heavenly Father.
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Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Yes I understand and NO I'm not "choosing" my words. If we're debating scripture and context then I am dealing with it on that level alone. You may be dealing with the scripture from a faith based perspective. Not me. The faith part of it is not as important. Two Christians can argue over the meaning of that verse and walk away in disagreement. I'm not under dogmatic bias so I'm only dealing with that verse as it is written in various scriptures and what it means contextually.
It only digresses when theist make baseless statements about ones ability to comment on scripture simply because that person is not a believer. None of that has anything to do with said scripture.
Yes. I agree that you were making your point.
I disagree. You made your point as the opponent made his or her point. You may not agree with the point of the opposition but it was a point made nonetheless.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
:biglaugh:
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
You said "posts" (plural). I've been keeping up with the conversation but didn't really comment on your post with look3467 because I really didn't care to. I do disagree that one must be a believer in order to scrutinize your scriptures......
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Well...if you like we can start a topic somewhere....
'why disbelief is dysfunctional in religious debate'.
As for this topic....'why have you forsaken me'
is an item that shouldn't require so much rhetoric.
As the Man hung on the cross...dying....His remark clearly indicates....
The Spirit that bolstered His speech and deed was not responding.
I see this event as fair warning.
If the angels are willing to stand back and allow the end as displayed in gospel...
I then expect the same, as my last breath is surrendered.
Silence.
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