My views on homosexuality

[thebigpicture]

No, disagreeing with someone's choices does not make you a bigot. Going on message boards jumping up and down screaming "it's wrong!" while being totally unable to support one damn thing you say makes you a bigot.

BTW, it's not a choice.

You have no ground to stand on when it comes to your sexual lifestyle other than saying that you can’t help the way you feel and so you simply must act upon it. Whereas, it is an undeniable fact that you need -- must have -- the opposite sex to reproduce. You cannot get around that. If it were suddenly a situation where there was only one gender, we would go the way of the dinosaur, as it were, and become extinct because it would be impossible to reproduce. Humanity would be done for. Finished. We were not created to pair off as woman and woman; man and man. Otherwise, we’d be able to reproduce that way. Our bodies are made to connect to the opposite sex. Period.

Now you can try to justify your sexual behavior, but the behavior will still remain wrong and immoral and unnatural. It is immoral because of the negative effects it can have and has on mankind; it is unnatural because it goes against what the Creator intended; it’s wrong because it is immoral and unnatural and has the potential to upset the entire balance of nature.

Now, If my expressing that makes me a bigot in your (or anyone else with your point of view about it) eyes, then guess what--? So be it. I couldn’t care less. It doesn’t actually make me a bigot; it just means you are PO’d because I refuse to go the cowardly, politically correct, bandwagoning, “Go on and be gay! There is nothing wrong with it!” route. I’m not that person that will conform to someone else’s beliefs simply because my view isn’t liked by that person. There has to be proof that my views are wrong in order for me to change the way I feel about something. Proof you simply don’t have. So it all goes full circle right back to my initial post. When you can show me a man that can produce a baby by having sex with another man, or a woman that can get pregnant by having sex with another woman, then we can talk about homosexuality being natural, normal and moral. Until then, it is pointless to try to make it right in my sight.

I’ve noticed that I have to be extraordinarily detailed for some of you to understand a fundamental point, so that there will be no confusion about why the behavior of homosexuality is immoral, unnatural and wrong I am going to provide some examples and/or more specific reasons:

Immoral: “Peter” is gay. He has a sex change because he wants to be exactly like a woman. And the procedure works very well because Peter now looks and sounds exactly like a woman. Post-op Peter then changes his name to “Paula”. Paula meets “Brad”. Brad is a heterosexual man in every way. Paula does not tell Brad that he (Paula) is a post-op transgender. Brad ends up falling in love and has sex with Paula. Time goes by and Brad ends up finding out that the “woman” he thought he fell in love with and had sex with is actually a man. It sends Brad into a downward spiral and ruins his entire life.

(This same scenario can be reversed with a woman having a sex change into a man).

Unnatural: It is impossible for two men to make a baby and for two women to make a baby. You have to have both a man and a woman. It’s how we were Created. Our bodies were meant to connect in order for there to be reproduction.

Wrong: It could upset the entire dynamic of the relationship between man and woman. Men could become more and more bitter and antagonistic towards women and women more and more bitter and antagonistic towards men. That, in turn, could upset the entire balance of nature, which in turn could cause the extinction of man.

Have I made myself clear?

 

[blackout]

You have no ground to stand on when it comes to your sexual lifestyle other than saying that you can’t help the way you feel and so you simply must act upon it. Whereas, it is an undeniable fact that you need -- must have -- the opposite sex to reproduce. You cannot get around that. If it were suddenly a situation where there was only one gender, we would go the way of the dinosaur, as it were, and become extinct because it would be impossible to reproduce. Humanity would be done for. Finished. We were not created to pair off as woman and woman; man and man. Otherwise, we’d be able to reproduce that way. Our bodies are made to connect to the opposite sex. Period.

Now you can try to justify your sexual behavior, but the behavior will still remain wrong and immoral and unnatural. It is immoral because of the negative effects it can have and has on mankind; it is unnatural because it goes against what the Creator intended; it’s wrong because it is immoral and unnatural and has the potential to upset the entire balance of nature.

Now, If my expressing that makes me a bigot in your (or anyone else with your point of view about it) eyes, then guess what--? So be it. I couldn’t care less. It doesn’t actually make me a bigot; it just means you are PO’d because I refuse to go the cowardly, politically correct, bandwagoning, “Go on and be gay! There is nothing wrong with it!” route. I’m not that person that will conform to someone else’s beliefs simply because my view isn’t liked by that person. There has to be proof that my views are wrong in order for me to change the way I feel about something. Proof you simply don’t have. So it all goes full circle right back to my initial post. When you can show me a man that can produce a baby by having sex with another man, or a woman that can get pregnant by having sex with another woman, then we can talk about homosexuality being natural, normal and moral. Until then, it is pointless to try to make it right in my sight.

I’ve noticed that I have to be extraordinarily detailed for some of you to understand a fundamental point, so that there will be no confusion about why the behavior of homosexuality is immoral, unnatural and wrong I am going to provide some examples and/or more specific reasons:

Immoral: “Peter” is gay. He has a sex change because he wants to be exactly like a woman. And the procedure works very well because Peter now looks and sounds exactly like a woman. Post-op Peter then changes his name to “Paula”. Paula meets “Brad”. Brad is a heterosexual man in every way. Paula does not tell Brad that he (Paula) is a post-op transgender. Brad ends up falling in love and has sex with Paula. Time goes by and Brad ends up finding out that the “woman” he thought he fell in love with and had sex with is actually a man. It sends Brad into a downward spiral and ruins his entire life.

(This same scenario can be reversed with a woman having a sex change into a man).

Unnatural: It is impossible for two men to make a baby and for two women to make a baby. You have to have both a man and a woman. It’s how we were Created. Our bodies were meant to connect in order for there to be reproduction.

Wrong: It could upset the entire dynamic of the relationship between man and woman. Men could become more and more bitter and antagonistic towards women and women more and more bitter and antagonistic towards men. That, in turn, could upset the entire balance of nature, which in turn could cause the extinction of man.

Have I made myself clear?

*yawns*

 

[rocketboy]

Well, there are so many problems with your reasoning I don't know where to begin, but I'll start by saying that your scenario for homosexuality being immoral is very unrealistic. Gay men do not undergo sex change surgery in order to find a man. They can perfectly well find other gay men to love.
Second, once again this reasoning ignores the possibility of bisexuality. The two sexual targets are not in any way mutually exclusive.
And third, if something is natural does not imply that it is moral. Murder is natural, and so is cannibalism, and rape. But these are not moral. Unnatural things are not evil either. Surgery for cataracts which cures the blind is not at all natural, but you wouldn't say it's wrong, would you?

 

[thebigpicture]

The "ick-factor" is not a good method for crafting social policy. I am utterly disgusted by obese or old people having sex. Yet, I do not deny them this right.

My point of view is not just based on the "ick" factor. Though I do find it stomach churning. It's based on the fact that it is immoral, unnatural and wrong. I do have to say that what is ironic though is how people tend to degrade women who allow men to (how do I put this) sexually enter through the exit door, yet have no problems with men doing it to other men. And what also really gets me is that gay woman find being with a man disgusting or unappealing, yet try to emulate the male genitalia through synthetic means.

The truth of the matter is that there is a part of your body (for both male and female) that is made to be used as an exit; not as a sexual entrance. And there is nothing sexually a woman can do for another woman that a man isn’t capable of doing better. That point of view may be disliked, but it's true. The fact that a person is willing to get feces all over them or damage their bodies all because "it feels good" to them is a matter of it being a lack of sexual self-discipline. Not because it's a natural or normal thing to do.

What is deemed "natural" is very much subjective and arbitrary. First, you assume that the goal of sexuality is the production of children. I would say that is one part of it, but pleasure is an equally (if not larger) function. The pleasure we gain from sex (not just the act itself, but the sexual emotions we feel towards whichever sex we are attracted to) creates a complicated and powerful social fabric that transcends mere reproduction. Sexuality creates strong social bonds through institutions such as committed relationships and marriage.

It is clear that sex is not solely for reproduction. Sex in and of itself is one of the many beautiful, extraordinary things given to us by the Creator. And it could result in other beautiful things. Though sex is beautiful, it can be abused and when that beauty is abused, when it is misused, that's when it stops being beautiful and turns into something very unappealing. There are people who feel more of an intimate bond with animals than they do with humans. Should we clap our hands and cheer them on when they actually start to treat that animal as if it is their mate? Just because something feels good doesn't mean it is good. Just because a person has a yearning to do something doesn't mean they should actually act upon it.

Second, you assume that the Creator would not have been wise enough to envision a world in which overpopulation is a problem. I am an atheist, but if I believed in God, I'd probably say that the homosexuality is a backup plan in case the world becomes overpopulated.

The Creator doesn't need a "backup plan". The cycle of life in and of itself is the way balance is kept.

Lastly, harkening back to my first point, I'd argue that homosexuality is perfectly natural because our same-sex parts are perfectly compatible.

We were not meant to be paired up according to similarity, rather our bodies were meant to pair up as opposites. Two outlets are identical but you can't get electricity from that. Nor can you get it from two prongs. You need an outlet and a prong. Men=prong; women=outlet.

My hand fits nicely around a guy's penis and a girl's fingers are perfect for stimulating another girl's g-spot. A girl's tongue works nicely on another girl's clitoris and anal penetration provides nice stimulation for a man.

You can stick a lot things into an outlet; but we all know that that's not a good and wise thing to do. Many things are doable. Doesn't mean it should be done.

 

[thebigpicture]

it would be a deviant behavior for you...
so don't do it....and who are you to jude how others express their love... especially when it comes to mutual consent

We make judgements every day in life about people. Life is filled with making judgment calls and saying whether you feel something is right or wrong. We have the right to make judgements in life. Doesn't mean those judgements are always right. In some cases they aren't. People misjudge people all the time. But, you still have the right to make judgements. What we don't have the right to do is judge what happens to that people when this all comes to an end. Only the Creator makes that final judgement. And as I've clearly stated on more than one occasion, I'm not one of those that feel that gay people are going to go to hell (so to speak) just because they are gay.

yes it is wrong according to the morals our society holds value to...
why would you think otherwise...because i think homosexuality is just as viable as heterosexuality?

I didn't ask what society thought. I asked if you thought incest was wrong and immoral.

can you explain to me the difference between incest and heterosexual relationships?

The act of incest is immoral in and of itself. The normal act of a man having sex with a woman in and of itself is not immoral. Though, there are some immoral behaviors in some heterosexual relationships.

 

[McBell]

You have no ground to stand on when it comes to your sexual lifestyle other than saying that you can’t help the way you feel and so you simply must act upon it. Whereas, it is an undeniable fact that you need -- must have -- the opposite sex to reproduce. You cannot get around that. If it were suddenly a situation where there was only one gender, we would go the way of the dinosaur, as it were, and become extinct because it would be impossible to reproduce. Humanity would be done for. Finished. We were not created to pair off as woman and woman; man and man. Otherwise, we’d be able to reproduce that way. Our bodies are made to connect to the opposite sex. Period.

Now you can try to justify your sexual behavior, but the behavior will still remain wrong and immoral and unnatural. It is immoral because of the negative effects it can have and has on mankind; it is unnatural because it goes against what the Creator intended; it’s wrong because it is immoral and unnatural and has the potential to upset the entire balance of nature.

Now, If my expressing that makes me a bigot in your (or anyone else with your point of view about it) eyes, then guess what--? So be it. I couldn’t care less. It doesn’t actually make me a bigot; it just means you are PO’d because I refuse to go the cowardly, politically correct, bandwagoning, “Go on and be gay! There is nothing wrong with it!” route. I’m not that person that will conform to someone else’s beliefs simply because my view isn’t liked by that person. There has to be proof that my views are wrong in order for me to change the way I feel about something. Proof you simply don’t have. So it all goes full circle right back to my initial post. When you can show me a man that can produce a baby by having sex with another man, or a woman that can get pregnant by having sex with another woman, then we can talk about homosexuality being natural, normal and moral. Until then, it is pointless to try to make it right in my sight.

I’ve noticed that I have to be extraordinarily detailed for some of you to understand a fundamental point, so that there will be no confusion about why the behavior of homosexuality is immoral, unnatural and wrong I am going to provide some examples and/or more specific reasons:

Immoral: “Peter” is gay. He has a sex change because he wants to be exactly like a woman. And the procedure works very well because Peter now looks and sounds exactly like a woman. Post-op Peter then changes his name to “Paula”. Paula meets “Brad”. Brad is a heterosexual man in every way. Paula does not tell Brad that he (Paula) is a post-op transgender. Brad ends up falling in love and has sex with Paula. Time goes by and Brad ends up finding out that the “woman” he thought he fell in love with and had sex with is actually a man. It sends Brad into a downward spiral and ruins his entire life.

(This same scenario can be reversed with a woman having a sex change into a man).

Unnatural: It is impossible for two men to make a baby and for two women to make a baby. You have to have both a man and a woman. It’s how we were Created. Our bodies were meant to connect in order for there to be reproduction.

Wrong: It could upset the entire dynamic of the relationship between man and woman. Men could become more and more bitter and antagonistic towards women and women more and more bitter and antagonistic towards men. That, in turn, could upset the entire balance of nature, which in turn could cause the extinction of man.

Have I made myself clear?

Wow.
All that and you still have not presented anything but your unsubstantiated opinions.

 

[thebigpicture]

One thing i do know, is that being an intellectually dishonest, willfully ignorant bigot, is definitely wrong. If there is a god, I've no doubt he/she/it would agree.

Which is why I'm honest about how I feel about homosexuality. And I'm fairly confident that the Creator likes a person to be honest more than not. I'm also confident that He knows the heart of every being and with him being omnispective and omnipresent and seeing and knowing everything that each individual does, He can correctly judge who is good and who is bad; who is willfully ignorant and a bigot and who is not. If you believed in the Creator, I'm sure you could agree with that view of him, could you not?

 

[thebigpicture]

Choice: Be a homosexual, or be a heterosexual. For those who think it is a choice, then just when did you choose? I never chose to be this way. I just am (a heterosexual). Its all about hate, of ignorance. People react to dogs being eaten in China, or horses being eaten in America. Its just ignorance that others might be different than you. Same thing with race. Ignorance runs amok.

If there were not defined boundaries in life than there would be complete chaos -- talk about people running amok.

 

[McBell]

My point of view is not just based on the "ick" factor. Though I do find it stomach churning. It's based on the fact that it is immoral, unnatural and wrong.

No such facts exist outside your imagination.

I do have to say that what is ironic though is how people tend to degrade women who allow men to (how do I put this) sexually enter through the exit door, yet have no problems with men doing it to other men. And what also really gets me is that gay woman find being with a man disgusting or unappealing, yet try to emulate the male genitalia through synthetic means.

Irrelevant rant.

The truth of the matter is that there is a part of your body (for both male and female) that is made to be used as an exit; not as a sexual entrance.

Oh you mean like the penis?
Or perhaps you mean the Vagina?
Both are used as exits to expel waste.

And there is nothing sexually a woman can do for another woman that a man isn’t capable of doing better.

Your limited knowledge about sex and sexuality is not the least bit surprising.
though I would not recommend continuing to show your ignorance of both on a message board.

That point of view may be disliked, but it's true.

No it isn't.
But since you are immune to truth and facts...

The fact that a person is willing to get feces all over them or damage their bodies all because "it feels good" to them is a matter of it being a lack of sexual self-discipline. Not because it's a natural or normal thing to do.

You seem to have a remarkably difficult time discerning fact from opinion.

It is clear that sex is not solely for reproduction. Sex in and of itself is one of the many beautiful, extraordinary things given to us by the Creator. And it could result in other beautiful things. Though sex is beautiful, it can be abused and when that beauty is abused, when it is misused, that's when it stops being beautiful and turns into something very unappealing. There are people who feel more of an intimate bond with animals than they do with humans. Should we clap our hands and cheer them on when they actually start to treat that animal as if it is their mate? Just because something feels good doesn't mean it is good. Just because a person has a yearning to do something doesn't mean they should actually act upon it.

Ah, here you reveal just how much the "ick" factor does influence your opinion.

The Creator doesn't need a "backup plan". The cycle of life in and of itself is the way balance is kept.

Says you.
But then homosexuality is very much a part of the cycle of life.
Regardless of how disgusting you think it is.

We were not meant to be paired up according to similarity, rather our bodies were meant to pair up as opposites. Two outlets are identical but you can't get electricity from that. Nor can you get it from two prongs. You need an outlet and a prong. Men=prong; women=outlet.

Again, says who?
If you want to claim some mysterious "creator" you needs show how you know the intentions of this mysterious "creator".

You can stick a lot things into an outlet; but we all know that that's not a good and wise thing to do. Many things are doable. Doesn't mean it should be done.

Yet you have no problem with someone putting a waste expelling body part into another waste expelling body part?
I mean, unless the persons attached to said body parts are related?

Seems to me that the only connection you have made between incest, homosexuality, and bestiality is that you think them all disgusting.

I mean, you have done a great deal of ratification to justify it all, but it all still boils down to the "ick" factor.

 

[rocketboy]

You seem to base all your arguments around there being a natural order or purpose of the universe. There actually isn't one. Our universe, our minds and our bodies, have no purpose beyond what we choose to use them for. Anal sex, which you refuse to name explicitly, is one such purpose. And I maintain it is morally neutral.

 

[blackout]

We make judgements every day in life about people. Life is filled with making judgment calls and saying whether you feel something is right or wrong. We have the right to make judgements in life. Doesn't mean those judgements are always right. In some cases they aren't. People misjudge people all the time. But, you still have the right to make judgements. What we don't have the right to do is judge what happens to that people when this all comes to an end. Only the Creator makes that final judgement. And as I've clearly stated on more than one occasion, I'm not one of those that feel that gay people are going to go to hell (so to speak) just because they are gay.



I didn't ask what society thought. I asked if you thought incest was wrong and immoral.



The act of incest is immoral in and of itself. The normal act of a man having sex with a woman in and of itself is not immoral. Though, there are some immoral behaviors in some heterosexual relationships.

Morality is a human construct.

As an Amoral person, your comparisons do not impress me.

If people are not ACTUALLY hurting anyone,
leave them alone.
simple.

This is not a moral statement either.
It is a pragmatic one.
It has to do with basic human freedoms.

IMO, the biggest potential problem with incest
is deformed babies.
This would constitute ACTUALLY hurting someone.
I would think that tied tubes and vasectomies
would be necessary.

People are quick to judge others,
but not half as quick
to carefully discern their own choices
and their own deeper motivations.

It would be best
if individuals put all the extra energy they spend
judging other people's relationships,
into improving their own relations.

 

[thebigpicture]

The thread I mentioned covers many parts of the subject and I'm sure can be searched on the site and read. Actually, my whole bit in that thread was all about how much choice could be involved and the born gay genetic dogma..the thread title itself " homosexuality disproves evolution" is something I didn't get into and doesn't make much sense to me at the moment. People who lived a life thinking they were born gay have changed their orientation, many times, it can be googled. The choice to change or self develope, if wanted, is not trumped by some vaige genetic disposition (exemptions of course). In the future as tech, knowledge, science,etc..advances...

Had this discussion with a group of people recently and some of us believed that some people are born gay and some thought it was completely by choice. I believe that for the most part that people are born gay because the signs of it can be experienced and seen by others at such a young age. Furthermore, I believe that people who change their orientation midway from homosexuality to heterosexuality were probably never truly gay at all. Rather they were just confused about what they were. I do believe that society does play a part in sexual experimentation. People feel more freely to explore what orientation they are if society says it's okay to explore. So you'll see women giving women a try and men giving men a try. It gives them leeway to quench their curiosity.

I feel that at the very core of every person, they are either heterosexual or homosexual. I'm not too keen on the bi-sexualtity aspect of it yet. To me, if you are a man and you enjoy and continue to have sexual relationships with other men, you are gay. Doesn't matter if you enjoy and have sex with both men and women. You are still gay. Same in the reverse.

so of the thread I mentioned much more insight in it, choice is always a part of things. Let's take what the basic message is in the born gay dogma and simplify.. here is the message, "You have no choice, obey your genes and what science tells you your genes command.. you have no choice whatsoever.Believe and Obey. Now, I don't know about you but that is some scary stuff... hope that helped.. with regards.. Imo.

I completely agree with you that people do have a choice in how they behave sexually. Just because a person has a yearning, doesn't mean they should act upon it. Some people are born with instincts that are not good or healthy for them and/or others around them. For instance, some people have the "alcoholic gene". It doesn't mean they should feel okay being an alcoholic.

There has to be boundaries in life. If there were no boundaries, this world would indeed be even worse off than it already has gotten to be.

 

[thebigpicture]

Here's why we can't understand it:



because you actually compared homosexuality to incest.

You lost all credibility there.

I compared them because they are both immoral behaviors. As I stated before, they don't have to be mirror images in order to be comparable.

 

[blackout]

I compared them because they are both immoral behaviors. As I stated before, they don't have to be mirror images in order to be comparable.

no. YOU say they are both immoral behaviors.

 

[blackout]

There has to be boundaries in life. If there were no boundaries, this world would indeed be even worse off than it already has gotten to be.

You form your relational boundaries,
and then be gracious enough
to let others do the same.
(for themSelves)

 

[LuisDantas]

I compared them because they are both immoral behaviors. As I stated before, they don't have to be mirror images in order to be comparable.

Come on now. There is nothing whatsoever immoral in homosexual behavior.

 

[LuisDantas]

As an Amoral person, your comparisons do not impress me.

It never occurred to me that you might describe yourself as Amoral, Vi.

 

[blackout]

It never occurred to me that you might describe yourself as Amoral, Vi.

No? :flirt:

Well, you know,
people create moralities,
and to a certain extent
that can be fine,
but there will never be agreement
as to what the "real/right/correct" moralities are,
because
there really is no such thing.
Just people
and their ideas, opinions and constructs.
people and their preferences and predjudices.

I personally do not understand
why those who realize that god is a construct of man,
do not also realize that morality is a construct of man.

 

[thebigpicture]

Well, there are so many problems with your reasoning I don't know where to begin, but I'll start by saying that your scenario for homosexuality being immoral is very unrealistic. Gay men do not undergo sex change surgery in order to find a man. They can perfectly well find other gay men to love.

You know what? I have never, in my life, had to explain minute things in detail to grown adults they way I am constantly have to do with some of you. It really is unbelievable and baffling.

I never said that gay people transition in order to find a man (or woman). I gave an example of how it's immoral. An example. One example.

And third, if something is natural does not imply that it is moral. Murder is natural, and so is cannibalism, and rape. But these are not moral.

Unnatural things are not evil either. Surgery for cataracts which cures the blind is not at all natural, but you wouldn't say it's wrong, would you?

I tell you what, just go back and reread my posts. And then you are going to see how pointless it was for you to post this.

 

[thebigpicture]

*yawns*

Yet you continue to read and respond.