NAACP issues travel advisory for Florida...

[fantome profane]

I find this absurd. If I am an employer, I am less likely to hire someone with needs that I have to consider (baggage) than the person without any baggage at all because the person without baggage is less complicated, risky, expensive, etc for me to employ. What you are suggesting will result in those most in need of a job being less likely of getting one

Again; this would result in the person requiring a higher living wage not getting the job. Bad idea.

Where is the obligation of the worker to either curtail his expenses so he can live within his budget, or get a second job in order to meet his expenses?

Once again I might be guilty of being imprecise. When I used the term "a living wage" what I meant was this.

liv·ing wage : a wage that is high enough to maintain a normal standard of living.

It is not dependent on the choices an individual has made. It depends on the cost of living in the region where they live.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Star Wars was about the future of the Military.

No, it's Joseph Campbell, cowboys and ninjas, and knights and princesses in space.
And like it or not, according to Lucas himself the Ewoks are modeled after the Vietcong.

 

[fantome profane]

according to Lucas himself said the Ewoks are modeled after the Vietcong.

That I did not know.


Lucas was weird.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Name a Prison system in the United States where prison inmates are actually forced to work against their will? And what will happen to them if they refuse?

Penal labor in the United States - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In 2021, inmates in federal prisons earned between $0.23 to $1.15 per hour,[11] far below minimum wage ($7.25 per hour).

The following list is not comprehensive. All U.S. state prison systems and the federal system have some form of penal labor, although inmates are paid for their labor in most states (usually amounting to less than $1 per hour).[31] As of 2017, Arkansas, Georgia, and Texas did not pay inmates for any work whether inside the prison (such as custodial work and food services) or in state-owned businesses. Additionally, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and South Carolina allowed unpaid labor for at least some jobs.

 

[Kfox]

Once again I might be guilty of being imprecise. When I used the term "a living wage" what I meant was this.

liv·ing wage : a wage that is high enough to maintain a normal standard of living.

It is not dependent on the choices an individual has made. It depends on the cost of living in the region where they live.

A normal standard lf living? That's what the minimum wage is all about.

 

[fantome profane]

A normal standard lf living? That's what the minimum wage is all about.

Exactly.

Or at least it should be. If the minimum wage is too low to provide a normal standard of living, it needs to be raised.

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand your point. I was imprecise.

It is wrong to use someone merely as a means to an ends without considering their needs as well. If you employ someone you are morally obligated to pay them a living wage (for full time work).

Morally obligated, eh.

If you decide their value to you is not worth a living wage you can decide not to hire them, or you can decide to pay them a living wage regardless.

Beware unanticipated consequences.
Many people become instantly unemployed.
Would the be better off?

I know lots of people who are paid more than they are worth, and lots of people who are paid less than they are worth. But you have to pay people a living wage, because regardless they have to live.

Enforced by law?
Even if it forces companies out off business?

The U.S. (and most countries) has always had an unjustly exploited underclass. From the beginning, to this day. Whether it was slaves, or immigrants or just lower class people.

Testify, komrade!
I prefer the UBI.

 

[Kfox]

Penal labor in the United States - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And what happens if they refuse to work, or go on strike?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That I did not know.


Lucas was weird.

You might have to be a little weird to have such a low budget approach and actually pull it off and have it looking high budget.

 

[Kfox]

Exactly.

Or at least it should be. If the minimum wage is too low to provide a normal standard of living, it needs to be raised.

So if we go back to post #218 when you said "if you employ someone, you are morally obligated to pay them a living wage" you were basically saying they should be paid the minimum wage; assuming the state minimum wage is enough for a single person to barely live on his own; is that correct?

 

[Stevicus]

To conflate it with owning a person is to broaden
the term to the point of near uselessness. Moreover,
using this as a basis to criticize forced labor as
punishment is specious. Punishment is generally
accepted, unlike slavery. And punishment by its
very nature & intent is intended to be onerous.

A better example of modern day slavery is military
conscription, ie, the loss of civil liberties when
coerced using threat of force to serve, especially
for minimal compensation, & sometimes at great
personal cost, eg, injury, death.

When the person isn't owned or forced, it's
ridiculously histrionic to call it "slavery".
Might as well call paying taxes, paying license
fees, serving on a jury "slavery" too.

No one is ever "owned" or "forced" to do anything. Everyone has choices, even slaves. Slaves can walk/run away. Slaves can fight back. Of course, they might starve to death or die in the cold, but they'd be free.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And what happens if they refuse to work, or go on strike?

They don't get to go on strike and or say no without consequences. That's prison basics.

 

[fantome profane]

So if we go back to post #218 when you said "if you employ someone, you are morally obligated to pay them a living wage" you were basically saying they should be paid the minimum wage; assuming the state minimum wage is enough for a single person to barely live on his own; is that correct?

If the minimum wage is set correctly, yes.

But let me ask you a question? Do you think people should have families? Do you think a person working 40 hours a week should be able to afford a family? If you think that is good for society, if that is what you want to see than that needs to be taken into account. If you don't think that has value, then ok.

 

[fantome profane]

Morally obligated, eh.

I. Kant make it any clearer.

Beware unanticipated consequences.
Many people become instantly unemployed.
Would the be better off?

That is what the social safety net is for. Not for corporations that just don't want to pay their employees.

Enforced by law?
Even if it forces companies out off business?

If a company needs someone to stay in business they should pay that person enough to keep them alive. And if they can't afford to pay for someone they need then there is something wrong with their business model.

Testify, komrade!
I prefer the UBI.

Urinary Bladder Infection?

 

[Kfox]

They don't get to go on strike and or say no without consequences. That's prison basics.

Prisoners go on strike all the time! What's to stop them from going on strike? What are the consequences?

 

[Kfox]

But let me ask you a question? Do you think people should have families?

If they want them; yes.

Do you think a person working 40 hours a week should be able to afford a family? If you think that is good for society,

Yes. But it is up to the person that chose to have the family to make sure he can afford it. It is not up to the employer to make sure his employees get paid enough to support their families

 

[The Hammer]

When the person isn't owned or forced, it's
ridiculously histrionic to call it "slavery".
Might as well call paying taxes, paying license
fees, serving on a jury "slavery" too.

So a person being forced to work for garbage pay, and no ability to better oneself isn't wage slavery?

What would you call it? Work? Laughable

 

[fantome profane]

Yes. But it is up to the person that chose to have the family to make sure he can afford it. It is not up to the employer to make sure his employees get paid enough to support their families

Ok. I am not going to argue that point. Just wanted you to think about it.

 

[The Hammer]

especially
for minimal compensation, & sometimes at great
personal cost, eg, injury, death.

At least in the US, this compensation isn't "minimal".

I don't agree with conscription. But to call the benefits given to our military as trivial/minimal is disingenuous, and ignorant.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Slavery is when a person is owned by another.

Slavery | Definition, History, & Facts

Slavery is the condition in which one human being is owned by another. Under slavery, an enslaved person is considered by law as property, or chattel, and is deprived of most of the rights ordinarily held by free persons. Learn more about the history, legality, and sociology of slavery in this...

www.britannica.com

Though there are many places in the world where this may be legal, in the United States it is not.

*sighs*

I missed the part where I suggested slavery was legal in the United States.
What I suggested was the modern slavery exists in the United States. That's like the least controversial statement ever.

What you are taking about is chattel slavery.