Near Death experiences to atheist

[apophenia]

By the way Apophenia, did you change the handles while you stayed in he room? the handles she draw perfectly without ever being in the place?

No. It was a dorm room. I was only living there for a very short time.

It was the detail about the door handles which I found particularly memorable.

To be totally rigorous about this, I have been thinking about this and wondering if there is any mundane explanation which I had overlooked. There is one. I can see that it is conceivable that my friend had the cooperation of someone else in the dorm building for a practical joke. Someone who knew my room layout, and heard my music.

But it seems highly unlikely. I was not aware of anyone in the dorm who knew her, and no-one ever called "Punked !" or whatever, which I would expect if it was a setup.

Nevertheless, my integrity demands that I consider (and acknowledge) this possibility.

If that were true, it was of the calibre of the pranks described in Robert Anton Wilson's book 'Masks of the Illuminati".

Which is a great book. if you've never read it, you can download a free PDF here http://api.ning.com/files/XcAwVH5uS...POwutOOpHm/4966628RAWMasksoftheIlluminati.pdf

The novel features numerous real-life historical figures in its narrative, including a first person description of reality by scientist Albert Einstein and Irish author James Joyce, while the plot involves English author and occultist Aleister Crowley, British nobles, the Loch Ness Monster and mystical experiences.
The plot revolves primarily around the description by a young English gentleman, Sir John Babcock, of his initiation into the Argenteum Astrum. Ancestors of Sir John are major characters in The Historical Illuminatus Chronicles.

Wikipedia - Masks of the Illuminati - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[apophenia]

Had Doors been less focused on trying to pin me with a god belief, he might have thought of that himself.

People can ruin the 'objectivity' of their perception with all sorts of tendencies

 

[Alceste]

No. It was a dorm room. I was only living there for a very short time.

It was the detail about the door handles which I found particularly memorable.

To be totally rigorous about this, I have been thinking about this and wondering if there is any mundane explanation which I had overlooked. There is one. I can see that it is conceivable that my friend had the cooperation of someone else in the dorm building for a practical joke. Someone who knew my room layout, and heard my music.

But it seems highly unlikely. I was not aware of anyone in the dorm who knew her, and no-one ever called "Punked !" or whatever, which I would expect if it was a setup.

Nevertheless, my integrity demands that I consider (and acknowledge) this possibility.

If that were true, it was of the calibre of the pranks described in Robert Anton Wilson's book 'Masks of the Illuminati".

Which is a great book. if you've never read it, you can download a free PDF here http://api.ning.com/files/XcAwVH5uS...POwutOOpHm/4966628RAWMasksoftheIlluminati.pdf



Wikipedia - Masks of the Illuminati - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is the must plausible mundane explanation I can come up with for my experience too. I dreamed I went to the Netherlands to get a message to an old flame I had no contact with for over five years. When I got to his flat, the building had been gutted by a fire and he didn't live there any more. There was a notice on the building explaining it was going to be converted to student housing. I also learned one of his room mates had committed suicide in the dream. I phoned him the next day and told him about the dream. He was flabbergasted and told me everything I dreamed was true.

I had a "skeptic" boyfriend once who thought maybe I'd been standing in a grocery line in Vancouver and overheard people talking about that specific building in Nurtingen, and my subconscious filed the information for later. I laughed at him - that was such a ridiculously implausible scenario.

Later it occurred to me that the simplest mundane explanation was that the guy was messing with me. I don't find that convincing, since the poor sap had no sense of humour, but it's a way more plausible explanation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No. It was a dorm room. I was only living there for a very short time.

It was the detail about the door handles which I found particularly memorable.

To be totally rigorous about this, I have been thinking about this and wondering if there is any mundane explanation which I had overlooked. There is one. I can see that it is conceivable that my friend had the cooperation of someone else in the dorm building for a practical joke. Someone who knew my room layout, and heard my music.

But it seems highly unlikely. I was not aware of anyone in the dorm who knew her, and no-one ever called "Punked !" or whatever, which I would expect if it was a setup.

Nevertheless, my integrity demands that I consider (and acknowledge) this possibility.

There's more than one, actually:

xkcd: Psychic
(note: mild profanity in link)

 

[apophenia]

BTW Doors, it would be fascinating to hear about the 'religious experience' you had on morphine, and then forgot all about. Funny that I remembered it and you forgot it, isn't it ?

"I'll show you yours if you'll show me mine". LOL.

Pass or play ?

Xeper

 

[apophenia]

There's more than one, actually:

xkcd: Psychic
(note: mild profanity in link)

There's always more than one.

String theory, multiverses, cyclic big bang/collapse, the holographic universe ....

The main thing is to somehow corner the market on credibility

 

[apophenia]

That is the must plausible mundane explanation I can come up with for my experience too. I dreamed I went to the Netherlands to get a message to an old flame I had no contact with for over five years. When I got to his flat, the building had been gutted by a fire and he didn't live there any more. There was a notice on the building explaining it was going to be converted to student housing. I also learned one of his room mates had committed suicide in the dream. I phoned him the next day and told him about the dream. He was flabbergasted and told me everything I dreamed was true.

I had a "skeptic" boyfriend once who thought maybe I'd been standing in a grocery line in Vancouver and overheard people talking about that specific building in Nurtingen, and my subconscious filed the information for later. I laughed at him - that was such a ridiculously implausible scenario.

Later it occurred to me that the simplest mundane explanation was that the guy was messing with me. I don't find that convincing, since the poor sap had no sense of humour, but it's a way more plausible explanation.

Yeah, I have known people who just got a kick out of screwing with other people's minds.

One day I was walking in the country, and I heard The Voice say "See that piece of rubbish on the road down there ?"

I looked and saw an indistinct small white object on the road.

"There is a message on it for you".

I walked the 30 or so metres to the object and picked it up. It was a small piece of a broken audio cassette. It was obviously the remains of Moody blues "Seventh Sojourn" album, because the only readable words on it were "Isn't Life Strange ?"

Who was screwing with my mind ?

Echelon testing a microwave sound to skull system ?

 

[1137]

Hm. It didn't seem defensive to me. It seemed like they just didn't think the explanations you offered were adequate.

Well I just read an entire page of childish assaults that say otherwise. I couldn't care less if they agree with current knowledge, and they never even claimed a position. Which is why I've been so confused. But I also refuse to deal with children. I have no problems with an opposing opinion unless it's fideistic.

 

[1137]

Had Doors been less focused on trying to pin me with a god belief, he might have thought of that himself.

I'm not trying to pin anything on you, just following inference.

People can ruin the 'objectivity' of their perception with all sorts of tendencies

Perhaps once you grow up a little you'll be able to understand where I'm coming from. Until then...

 

[1137]

BTW Doors, it would be fascinating to hear about the 'religious experience' you had on morphine, and then forgot all about. Funny that I remembered it and you forgot it, isn't it ?

"I'll show you yours if you'll show me mine". LOL.

Pass or play ?

Xeper

I didn't forget about it I just didn't think of it at the time of my post. Who's making wild assertions and such now? I didn't think about it because I don't like calling it a mystical experience since I was HIGH not to mention young, terrified, and discovering progressive metal all at once.

Again, maybe upon maturing you'll understand.

And no Alceste, obviously no childish defensive vendetta here

 

[Alceste]

Well I just read an entire page of childish assaults that say otherwise. I couldn't care less if they agree with current knowledge, and they never even claimed a position. Which is why I've been so confused. But I also refuse to deal with children. I have no problems with an opposing opinion unless it's fideistic.

Agnosticism (in the sense that the mechanism behind the experience is unknown, not in the theistic sense) is the only rational position to take in the face of these experiences. That doesn't seem confusing to me. I think for a lot of people who consider themselves "skeptics", the idea of there being anything we don't already know or can't explain with existing understanding is very distasteful. That was certainly the case with the boyfriend who thought he had an explanation for my dream, even thigh it was completely absurd. I did some probing and it turned out he was terrified of the unknown. Poor thing.

 

[1137]

Agnosticism (in the sense that the mechanism behind the experience is unknown, not in the theistic sense) is the only rational position to take in the face of these experiences. That doesn't seem confusing to me. I think for a lot of people who consider themselves "skeptics", the idea of there being anything we don't already know or can't explain with existing understanding is very distasteful. That was certainly the case with the boyfriend who thought he had an explanation for my dream, even thigh it was completely absurd. I did some probing and it turned out he was terrified of the unknown. Poor thing.

That's not the problem for me thank goodness. I just find it distasteful when we don't follow the logic and evidence. Which evidence suggests a physical cause is unlikely? None. Which suggests a physicist explanation? All. Knowledge and understanding may be fluid, but that doesn't mean the things we have overwhelming reason to believe will end up doing a 360 to magic land. What are the chances electricity is made by faires based on evidence and reason?

Yes all knowledge is flawed but I wish people would stop trying to convince me not to laugh at flat earthers.

 

[1137]

And agnosticism deals with not being able to gain knowledge if I'm not mistaken. For example believing we cannot understand consciousness or cannot know if God exists or not.

 

[Alceste]

That's not the problem for me thank goodness. I just find it distasteful when we don't follow the logic and evidence. Which evidence suggests a physical cause is unlikely? None. Which suggests a physicist explanation? All. Knowledge and understanding may be fluid, but that doesn't mean the things we have overwhelming reason to believe will end up doing a 360 to magic land. What are the chances electricity is made by faires based on evidence and reason?

Yes all knowledge is flawed but I wish people would stop trying to convince me not to laugh at flat earthers.

Who suggested a natural or physical cause was impossible?

 

[Alceste]

And agnosticism deals with not being able to gain knowledge if I'm not mistaken. For example believing we cannot understand consciousness or cannot know if God exists or not.

There is a "can not know" agnosticism as well as a "do not know" agnosticism. I'm referring to the latter. No current science I'm aware of explains my atypical experiences adequately, so I do not know the mechanism. It's pointless to speculate. The more you try to cram these experiences into a mundane, materialist paradigm, the more absurd the "explanation" becomes.

 

[1137]

Who suggested a natural or physical cause was impossible?

Only George that I noticed.

There is a "can not know" agnosticism as well as a "do not know" agnosticism. I'm referring to the latter. No current science I'm aware of explains my atypical experiences adequately, so I do not know the mechanism. It's pointless to speculate.

I wish my scientific method was "I don't know so it's pointless to think about". I can also think of a few experiences I cannot fully explain or especially scientifically prove, but they way I work I can't let that lack of knowledge erase all other knowledge which supports a physical explanation. Just look at how awesome and crazy physics is today.

The more you try to cram these experiences into a mundane, materialist paradigm, the more absurd the "explanation" becomes.

I disagree. But that's just subjective and silly to debate haha

 

[1137]

May I point out I'm possibly the weakest link who's been in this thread yet for physicalien yet I've been given the most attention? Flattering but others here are far more patient and quite possibly far More educated with the subject, so why not give them their due and allow me my rest from this cluster ****.

 

[apophenia]

May I point out I'm possibly the weakest link who's been in this thread yet for physicalien yet I've been given the most attention? Flattering but others here are far more patient and quite possibly far More educated with the subject, so why not give them their due and allow me my rest from this cluster ****.

Really, you are not a victim, you are just drawing fire.

And I don't dislike you. You are 'a young fox on thin ice' with a tendency to be insulting. Nothing unusual about that. You should grow out of it soon, and in the meantime no-one is particularly worried about you.

 

[1137]

You sure seemed very concerned with myself and what I say. Multiple threads show this. Hell you creepishly remember things I've said better than I do. But again, tell yourself what you need to hear.

 

[apophenia]

You sure seemed very concerned with myself and what I say. Multiple threads show this. Hell you creepishly remember things I've said better than I do. But again, tell yourself what you need to hear.

Whatever you say Doors.

I 'creepishly' remember things ? LOL. That is genuinely funny.

I was surprised that you would make such a statement, about events which you said at the time shaped your world view, yet you don't remember what you said a little while later.

Telling yourself what you need to hear perhaps ? Truth contingent on today's mood ? Memory contingent on today's argument ?

The quest for objective knowledge ... LOL. Good luck with that. :bow: