Near Death experiences to atheist

[apophenia]

Noopept is great for memory.

I have objective evidence.

 

[1137]

The morphine thing was so long ago, it set events and motion sure but quite a bit has happened since then. For this thread a drug induced experience is far too easy to write off and therefore a waste. But you don't give a crap about the topic or objective knowledge, just your rather disturbing hard on for me.

 

[apophenia]

 

[conker]

Simple question: How can you explain the numerous reports of people that can see outside of their body when they die and come back to life? (To atheist)

Maybe these people aren't mentally sane. Maybe they didn't die. You can't really know without being the person. The same could be said for the people claiming to see heaven. It's not proof of anything. For all I know it could have been a crazy, and bad dream. Regardless, this is not even close to being sufficient evidence to prove a god exists.

 

[Alceste]

Only George that I noticed.



I wish my scientific method was "I don't know so it's pointless to think about". I can also think of a few experiences I cannot fully explain or especially scientifically prove, but they way I work I can't let that lack of knowledge erase all other knowledge which supports a physical explanation. Just look at how awesome and crazy physics is today.



I disagree. But that's just subjective and silly to debate haha

I'm not a physicist, psychologist or neurologist. So it is actually pointless for me to speculate on the mechanism. Sure, I can amuse myself for a while by doing so, but it would be absurd to suggest I have the necessary credentials to come up with a scientific answer.

Like all of us who rely on scientists to reveal the mechanisms that cause observable phenomena, all I can do is critically examine whatever they propose, and if I find it unconvincing, wait for further evidence.

What is "your" scientific method? I'm intrigued by that particular turn of phrase.

 

[1137]

Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Alceste]

Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, I'm familiar with THE scientific method, but you said YOUR scientific method, as if you think there is more than one.

 

[George-ananda]

I'm not a physicist, psychologist or neurologist. So it is actually pointless for me to speculate on the mechanism.

Well think about it. On standard scientific stuff (like chemistry) you never had to figure out the mechanism yourself. There were standard science books we all basically accept.

I agree with you that on anomalous experiences like yours and Apohenia's we can't really find satisfying answers in standard science books.

So, what I've been saying is there are 'scientists' or 'clairvoyants' or 'eastern sages' (or whatever term you prefer) that have studied things beyond our relatively familiar physical realm that explain the nature of the mechanism of the other realms to us.

Just like chemistry, we would never be able to figure out the mechanisms ourselves just by thinking. We accept the work of the chemistry masters that came before us.

So now the question becomes are these 'Vedic Science' and 'clairvoyant' masters worth listening to. It is very obscure stuff in the west and I might say basically ignored. I personally find that a great loss.

Now certainly science beyond the physical realm can not be done with the same rigorous experimental methods used in the physical sciences. But enough anomalous events in the history of mankind should at least cause us to consider the work of these 'other' type of scientists.

 

[Alceste]

Well think about it. On standard scientific stuff (like chemistry) you never had to figure out the mechanism yourself. There were standard science books we all basically accept.

I agree with you that on anomalous experiences like yours and Apohenia's we can't really find satisfying answers in standard science books.

So, what I've been saying is there are 'scientists' or 'clairvoyants' or 'eastern sages' (or whatever term you prefer) that have studied things beyond our relatively familiar physical realm that explain the nature of the mechanism of the other realms to us.

Just like chemistry, we would never be able to figure out the mechanisms ourselves just by thinking. We accept the work of the chemistry masters that came before us.

So now the question becomes are these 'Vedic Science' and 'clairvoyant' masters worth listening to. It is very obscure stuff in the west and I might say basically ignored. I personally find that a great loss.

Now certainly science beyond the physical realm can not be done with the same rigorous experimental methods used in the physical sciences. But enough anomalous events in the history of mankind should at least cause us to consider the work of these 'other' type of scientists.

No, I don't agree that people who are simply curious about these phenomena and make personal efforts to explore and understand them are "scientists". The rules of science are very specific. You can call it exploration, investigation, speculation, whatever, but not science.

Let go. It doesn't have to be science, does it? Can't you just let it be religion?

 

[Me Myself]

I dont have bad blood tawrds you, but now I know for sure yu are getting defensive

You were pretending either me or apophenia are claiming a defnitive answer of what happened, when neither of us did and you nevr answered my question because yo started to get defensive on both of us for some weird reason.

Again:

Is it reasonably possible to guess the type of handles of a room you ve never been on and the positioning of mirrors of such room if you know the person who is in that room? guess it not by name dropping, but by drawing the place, and accurately depicting the place of the doors, the handles, tghe types of handles, the mirrors and the form size and placing of the mirrors?

Is it reasonably posible? simply from knowing the person in the room? to get all this right?

Its just a question.

I am still waiting for Doors to answer this questions.

Now we ow it cannot be the hypothesis he launched, given apophenia didnt change the handles and almost didnt change the room given the short time he was in there.

 

[Magic Man]

So, what I've been saying is there are 'scientists' or 'clairvoyants' or 'eastern sages' (or whatever term you prefer) that have studied things beyond our relatively familiar physical realm that explain the nature of the mechanism of the other realms to us.

Just like chemistry, we would never be able to figure out the mechanisms ourselves just by thinking. We accept the work of the chemistry masters that came before us.

So now the question becomes are these 'Vedic Science' and 'clairvoyant' masters worth listening to. It is very obscure stuff in the west and I might say basically ignored. I personally find that a great loss.

They are not scientists unless they follow the scientific method. The question is how they "studied" the things. With chemistry, we can see how the things were studied. We can see the experiments and evidence. It's not just "Look, these guys studied it and say this, so you have to accept it".

Now certainly science beyond the physical realm can not be done with the same rigorous experimental methods used in the physical sciences. But enough anomalous events in the history of mankind should at least cause us to consider the work of these 'other' type of scientists.

No, they shouldn't. If they can't study something with any kind of rigorous methods, then they're neither scientists nor worthy of being considered.

 

[1137]

I've been told by doctors that using q-tips will cause wax to build up in you ears to the point where it'll need to be cleaned out. This has happened to me, I use q-tips and the wax builds up. But I can't see this happening, it's in my ear! So I have the connection between q-tip and wax build up (much like brain activity and consciousness) but I don't have 100% factual proof one controls the other. So I'm going to assume little faires are packing the ear wax in (hell maybe making me conscious too!) because I recently redid the garden and disturbed their home.

 

[Me Myself]

I've been told by doctors that using q-tips will cause wax to build up in you ears to the point where it'll need to be cleaned out. This has happened to me, I use q-tips and the wax builds up. But I can't see this happening, it's in my ear! So I have the connection between q-tip and wax build up (much like brain activity and consciousness) but I don't have 100% factual proof one controls the other. So I'm going to assume little faires are packing the ear wax in (hell maybe making me conscious too!) because I recently redid the garden and disturbed their home.

George ananda aside, tell me when you can answer my simple question wi a yes or no.

 

[George-ananda]

It's not just "Look, these guys studied it and say this, so you have to accept it".

I never said the above sentence. Let's try:

"Look these guys studied it and say this, so you might want to consider it"

I personally considered it and found it very valuable and believable.

No, they shouldn't. If they can't study something with any kind of rigorous methods, then they're neither scientists nor worthy of being considered.

There's really many uses of the words science and scientists and I don't really care about semantics. Fine, let's use some other words.

Are you saying: 'There's no rigorous way to observe or study alleged super-physical realms; hence they can't exist or even be considered to exist.'?

I think it's correct that mainstream science is rigorous and is agnostic on super-physical questions. But we don't have to limit everything we believe about existence to what mainstream science knows. We can consider information from sources not amenable to the rigorous scientific process in our beliefs on the structure of existence.

 

[Ingledsva]

Well think about it. On standard scientific stuff (like chemistry) you never had to figure out the mechanism yourself. There were standard science books we all basically accept.

I agree with you that on anomalous experiences like yours and Apohenia's we can't really find satisfying answers in standard science books.

So, what I've been saying is there are 'scientists' or 'clairvoyants' or 'eastern sages' (or whatever term you prefer) that have studied things beyond our relatively familiar physical realm that explain the nature of the mechanism of the other realms to us.

Just like chemistry, we would never be able to figure out the mechanisms ourselves just by thinking. We accept the work of the chemistry masters that came before us.

So now the question becomes are these 'Vedic Science' and 'clairvoyant' masters worth listening to. It is very obscure stuff in the west and I might say basically ignored. I personally find that a great loss.

Now certainly science beyond the physical realm can not be done with the same rigorous experimental methods used in the physical sciences. But enough anomalous events in the history of mankind should at least cause us to consider the work of these 'other' type of scientists.

I have also had some strange things happen to me; however, I think some things that we consider paranormal, are actually normal. We only use a small percentage of our brains, and probably just don't understand the science behind these things yet.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Just like chemistry, we would never be able to figure out the mechanisms ourselves just by thinking. We accept the work of the chemistry masters that came before us.

It sounds like you're confused about how science works.

Yes, breakthroughs often take extraordinary brilliance and creativity, but once a discovery is made, it can normally be confirmed by anyone... or at least by many.

For instance, I probably wouldn't have been able to discover the principles of chemistry on my own, but I can still recognize predictions that these principles make... even mundane, everyday ones like how I get more sugar sludge at the bottom of my coffee mug when I drink it with milk or cream than when I have it back (demonstrating the common ion effect), or that engines really do run at peak efficiency with an air-fuel ratio of 13.6:1 (demonstrating stoichiometry).

So now the question becomes are these 'Vedic Science' and 'clairvoyant' masters worth listening to. It is very obscure stuff in the west and I might say basically ignored. I personally find that a great loss.

Now certainly science beyond the physical realm can not be done with the same rigorous experimental methods used in the physical sciences. But enough anomalous events in the history of mankind should at least cause us to consider the work of these 'other' type of scientists.

When you say that "science" beyond the physical realm "can not be done with the same rigorous experimental methods used in the physical sciences", you've said all that you need to. The reliability of science depends on rigor. When you play fast-and-loose with the rules and lower the bar to let in the beliefs you want, you lose that reliability.

 

[Me Myself]

I never said the above sentence. Let's try:

"Look these guys studied it and say this, so you might want to consider it"

I personally considered it and found it very valuable and believable.



There's really many uses of the words science and scientists and I don't really care about semantics. Fine, let's use some other words.

Are you saying: 'There's no rigorous way to observe or study alleged super-physical realms; hence they can't exist or even be considered to exist.'?

I think it's correct that mainstream science is rigorous and is agnostic on super-physical questions. But we don't have to limit everything we believe about existence to what mainstream science knows. We can consider information from sources not amenable to the rigorous scientific process in our beliefs on the structure of existence.

We may share a lot of beliefs, but please dont pretend they are science.

As penguin said, if they cant be rigurously studied and confirmed and peer reviewed, then it is not science.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think it's correct that mainstream science is rigorous and is agnostic on super-physical questions. But we don't have to limit everything we believe about existence to what mainstream science knows. We can consider information from sources not amenable to the rigorous scientific process in our beliefs on the structure of existence.

"Mainstream science" is not "agnostic" on any question where actual evidence speaks to an answer.

If you don't want to limit your beliefs to ones that are founded on evidence, that's up to you.

 

[Me Myself]

No one does.

To anyone thinking s/he does:

Are you awake?

 

[George-ananda]

When you say that "science" beyond the physical realm "can not be done with the same rigorous experimental methods used in the physical sciences", you've said all that you need to.

I just previously stated that there are many uses of words in English, so I said fine let's use another word for the super-physical teachings. How about we just call my beliefs 'Hindu/Theosophical Teachings' not 'SCIENCE'. I hope everyone can be good with that.

Again, the Hindu/Theosophical 'Teachings' I'm talking about are not amenable to the scientific method. Hence, admittedly they can't be known with the same rigorous certainty of physical chemistry but that does not make them not worth considering.

As I believe that science can not adequately explain consciousness and certain types of 'anomalous' human experiences; it is wise to also consider teachings not amenable to the scientific method in this century.

The reliability of science depends on rigor.

I'll go along with that.

When you play fast-and-loose with the rules and lower the bar to let in the beliefs you want, you lose that reliability.

Nobody's playing 'fast-and-loose' with the rules of Science. Again, it is agreed that super-physical teachings can't be known with the same 'reliability' as Science.

But my goal in all this is not 'Science', but what is the most reasonable beliefs to hold about this universe. And in that process we can also consider teachings not amenable to the scientific method.