no sex? no food!

[Tiapan]

I have no trust on what the media say about Afghanistan.
The media misinterpret everything there.

Subjective Point of View

Really doesn't matter if you trust it or not, I am sure most Germans did not believe the Wests broadcasts of Nazi gas chambers, either. The point is, is it fiction or fact?
There is a credibility issue here. Was this law passed or not passed?
Why were the women delegates ignored and why did kahzi pass it by decree rather than debate it through parliament?

Where is the outcry from the moderate Islamic nations (Deafening Silence AGAIN)

Afghanistan has been at war ever since Alexander the great. What is obvious looking at the history is no invader has ever conquered that country.
Why would any want a dust bowl like it, is beyond me anyway. Thats right, I forgot, its to get that Trillion dollars worth of oil from up north, piped to the gulf instead of through Russia. (Stupid idea really the goat herders are just going to blow it up anyway).

Back to the OP
Objective Point of View

Afghanistan has always been a primitive agrarian culture, still the same as it was a thousand years ago except they now have mobile phones and color TVs to watch while they tend their goats and opium. In these cultures, because of the high female to male ratio (Lots of dead males courtesy of continuous war), strange customs such as polygamy and treating woman as expendable assets or liabilities has been proved a successful way these cultures have survived to the present.

We really cannot measure their standards by our standards, because our cultures and environmental pressures are so different, we are centuries ahead. It is a sad reflection that humans must be treated this way for a society to survive. Education not bullets is the only real cure, and that will not occur over night, difficult when the locals seem to have this fetish of burning down schools, especially if they teach females. Hell you don't want your woman to think or read do you? She would be able to read the Quran, and might argue against your interpretation. We couldn't have that could we.

As an aside I was talking to a Muslim woman from Coburg the other day about a cousin, I have 3 cousins she had 81. Big families are a feature of these cultures (I think like RC's, Islamists are antiabortion and contraceptives (Could be wrong here). Rapid breeding is a successful way of maintaining a societies population against high mortality eg infant mortality, disease and war. I would ask is such vigorous proliferation really necessary here in the Paradise of Australia, if the hardship is not present? An Englishman let a pair of rabbits lose at Geelong in the 1850s, there are very few predators in Australia, we are still dealing with consequences of that event.

In Papua - New Guinea there are still tribes that practice cannibalism and headhunting, we may find this abhorrent, but in their complex culture with limited resources, it is a system that has worked for thousands of years.

All these cultures are legitimate experiments in the evolution of the human society. Some will succeed others will become extinct.

Cheers

 

[Shia Islam]

but it was not Hilafahs who killed him.




.

There were two groups among the Muslims:
1. The hypocrites (mentioned in Quran)
2. The Tolaqa’a : who were the defeated army, who fought the prophet and after the prophet made victory over them he has forgave them. Those were the brutal people who were waiting for a chance to take revenge for their relatives killed by the prophet and his people, and especially Imam Ali.

After the prophet death those to groups made a coalition, the Hypocrites have taken the Caliphate (head of the country), and a small country within the country was established in Sham where the Tolaqa’a ruled, the Umayyad.
When Imam Ali has finally taken his position which was assigned to him by the prophet, there was already another government in Sham, led by the Tolaqa’a, the Umayyad, who refused to accept him.
The Umayyad fought Imam Ali, killed imam Hassan, and killed most of the prophet family in Karbala.

These facts are indeed expected by the Quran:
“Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.” Quran 3(144)

 

[.lava]

There were two groups among the Muslims:
1. The hypocrites (mentioned in Quran)
2. The Tolaqa’a : who were the defeated army, who fought the prophet and after the prophet made victory over them he has forgave them. Those were the brutal people who were waiting for a chance to take revenge for their relatives killed by the prophet and his people, and especially Imam Ali.

After the prophet death those to groups made a coalition, the Hypocrites have taken the Caliphate (head of the country), and a small country within the country was established in Sham where the Tolaqa’a ruled, the Umayyad.
When Imam Ali has finally taken his position which was assigned to him by the prophet, there was already another government in Sham, led by the Tolaqa’a, the Umayyad, who refused to accept him.
The Umayyad fought Imam Ali, killed imam Hassan, and killed most of the prophet family in Karbala.

These facts are indeed expected by the Quran:
“Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.” Quran 3(144)

i am afraid, history repeats and we are extremely off-topic

thank you for explaining, Shia Islam.




.

 

[.lava]

Yes and no.

There are some actions committed by some Muslims that we must condemn, such as the torturing and killing of gays in Iraq, for example.

But there are also some actions committed by - say - the US military like bombing the homes of innocent people which also must be condemned.

When we condemn either, we are not "serving" anyone. Trust me, our media broadcasts crimes committed by the military too. That's why there is such opposition to Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib and other similar facilities. That's why the US bombing of the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Sudan was so heavily condemned. We are not blind sheep.

Edit: I guess I should finish that thought lol. So no, we do not directly "serve" our governments and media in that sense.

But it has the indirect effect - when some atrocity is committed by a group of Muslims - of legitimizing some atrocity committed by the military, which is obviously a horrible thing. But this only happens in the minds of a few people. Most North Americans and Europeans are anti-war.

OK, but why would citizens of some nation try to correct wrongs of some other nation while their very own still has things to be corrected? you correct your own flaws, they correct their own. why interfering with other nation's problem as if your nation was perfect? this is really like human ego. when it comes to talk about mistakes of other, everyone has lots to say even though they do the same things for their own reasons.






.

 

[Alceste]

We always have the option of resorting to violence?

Violence funded by Western democracies is what brought these neanderthals into power in the first place. Afghanistan was a secular country in the 70's, with women working, sending their daughters to school, driving cars, walking around on the streets whenever they damn well felt like it, and their rights enshrined in law. The establishment of an Islamic state in 1992 under the mujahideen and the rise in power of warlords like the current ruler was a direct result of anti-communist violence funded and supported by Western democracies.

So, maybe it's time to try something other than violence.

 

[Tiapan]

Exactly. It's not uncommon for people to try and look at many different news sources to try and get a full picture.

I stopped watching CNN because it was just getting ridiculous.

...and if you want a totally unbiased point of view watch Foxnews

(Sorry was just kidding. I think Goebels is alive and works at Fox News)

But seriously the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Commision) is pretty good, it incorporates full news programs from Deutch Belle, Radio Netherlands, BBC etc and not corporate America.

Cheers

 

[Alceste]

OK, but why would citizens of some nation try to correct wrongs of some other nation while their very own still has things to be corrected? you correct your own flaws, they correct their own. why interfering with other nation's problem as if your nation was perfect? this is really like human ego. when it comes to talk about mistakes of other, everyone has lots to say even though they do the same things for their own reasons.

Hi, .lava. I totally agree with where you're coming from - people should clean up their own back yard before pointing the finger at the neighbours - but I think that in this case the sentiment is misplaced.

First, Human Rights Watch is critical of all human rights abuses in every country. It is a non-profit organization, not affiliated with any particular country or political body. Its only purpose is to document and publicize human rights abuses wherever they occur. So they're not a good target if you would like to accuse someone of nationalistic or cultural bias. They are only "biased" toward humane treatment, political freedom and equality for all humans, everywhere, regardless of nationality.

Second, the OP simply expresses sadness and bewilderment on behalf of - and in solidarity with - Afghan women who are now officially property of their husbands. Again! Despite all the empty promises of the invading "democratic" armies! Let's just be sad together. Nobody's pointing the accusing finger at anyone, except for the woman-hating jerk who pushed this law through and the other woman-hating jerks he is hoping to impress with it. I'm a woman, she's a woman, you're a woman. I think we can all agree it stinks. Let's join forces and express some sympathy and sadness on behalf of our sisters in Afghanistan - without getting sidetracked by our differences in religion and nationality.

BTW, I don't think my nation (Canada) is perfect. I fought like hell to try to keep us out of Afghanistan, and continually, relentlessly and mercilessly criticized the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan from Day 1. I've been to the protests, I've written letters to my MP, I've written millions of words on the internet arguing against the "War on Terror" on various forums and blogs. Debated endlessly with family and friends who thought maybe a war was just what Afghanistan needed.

A lot of the other Westerners on this thread are like me. We certainly don't turn the other cheek when our own country happens to be doing the Evil. We raise holy hell about it, and it's not our fault we usually don't get listened to - war is too profitable. (And boys just can't bear to let their ridiculously expensive and deadly toys sit around gathering dust.) So give us a break! We should be allowed to disapprove of the occasional woman-hating law after all our hard work on behalf of the citizens of Afghanistan.

 

[.lava]

Hi, .lava. I totally agree with where you're coming from - people should clean up their own back yard before pointing the finger at the neighbours - but I think that in this case the sentiment is misplaced.

First, Human Rights Watch is critical of all human rights abuses in every country. It is a non-profit organization, not affiliated with any particular country or political body. Its only purpose is to document and publicize human rights abuses wherever they occur. So they're not a good target if you would like to accuse someone of nationalistic or cultural bias. They are only "biased" toward humane treatment, political freedom and equality for all humans, everywhere, regardless of nationality.

i am unsure about that. OK, they do point whatever go against human rights, i agree. but the locations they chose is where Western troops are. there's been a genocide in Turkistan, you know China do extremely violent things to Uyghur Turks. it would be spoken about for a day or two. or Chechen people are almost 'don't even exist' even though Chechen society had to leave homes and continue their lives in woods to survive from Russians. how often do you hear about them? can you really say you hear about them as much as you hear about Afghanistan? i can not even see one single Chechen on the net. so, yes, i agree with you some ways but even human rights organizations pull attention to certain regions of the planet. Afghanistan is going to be number one.

Second, the OP simply expresses sadness and bewilderment on behalf of - and in solidarity with - Afghan women who are now officially property of their husbands. Again! Despite all the empty promises of the invading "democratic" armies! Let's just be sad together. Nobody's pointing the accusing finger at anyone, except for the woman-hating jerk who pushed this law through and the other woman-hating jerks he is hoping to impress with it. I'm a woman, she's a woman, you're a woman. I think we can all agree it stinks. Let's join forces and express some sympathy and sadness on behalf of our sisters in Afghanistan - without getting sidetracked by our differences in religion and nationality.

OK...i hear you.

BTW, I don't think my nation (Canada) is perfect. I fought like hell to try to keep us out of Afghanistan, and continually, relentlessly and mercilessly criticized the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan from Day 1. I've been to the protests, I've written letters to my MP, I've written millions of words on the internet arguing against the "War on Terror" on various forums and blogs. Debated endlessly with family and friends who thought maybe a war was just what Afghanistan needed.

A lot of the other Westerners on this thread are like me. We certainly don't turn the other cheek when our own country happens to be doing the Evil. We raise holy hell about it, and it's not our fault we usually don't get listened to - war is too profitable. (And boys just can't bear to let their ridiculously expensive and deadly toys sit around gathering dust.) So give us a break! We should be allowed to disapprove of the occasional woman-hating law after all our hard work on behalf of the citizens of Afghanistan.

you are Canadian too. what's this? are we having some Canadian invasion on internet?

i can relate with your reaction. even though i would not refer you as i speak about Western governments and i mention that i do not think governments represent citizens, i simply won't stop bringing it up. this is part of reality and source of wars of last decade. maybe for some people this is news but for us it is not. USA has been supportive of some other things. PKK in my naiton is one of them. we can feel sad and sorry for Afhan women together, seriously we can. but i can not stop till it is over. soon you'd see more wars, my friend. many nations would get in war soon. Turkey, Iran and Syria. you'll see. forcing women to sexual relationship and giving no food in case she refuses.....it is just sick!! i mean...i really can not find words for it because i do believe sexuality is fruit of love, for God's sake!! it is a result of love between two, not the reason why women exist. of course i can tell how i feel and how i feel could not be different from how you feel. i am more compassionate to animals than how they treat women. but i do not want to say this kind of stuff anymore. i do not want to take one detail out of this mess and cry over it. that mess contains much more worse than this and that mess want us to talk about wrong doings of Muslims. i am not saying they are doing right by forbidden women to eat. you know it. but i am not willing to serve the ones who wants to end Muslims in Afghanistan. i feel extremely sad for afhan people. not just for women. for old people, for children...because they are either victims of Taleban or foreign troops. noone really cares for this people. NOONE! everyone runs after his own desire and these poor people are like some kind of football they play with. this is a terrible destiny they are facing and even though i can relate with reasonable invitations, i just can not take one detail as the most important issue. behavour of Western citizens is like cutting arms of a bad tree. do you know that story? there is a tree that gives poisonous fruits and people cuts arms of tree all the time. as they cut tree, it becomes stronger and bigger. so there is more poison. noone manages to figure out what to do. at last someone prevents water to reach its roots and tree dies. talking about human rights in Afghanistan is not going to eliminate the source of evil. but OK, we can feel sorry together but i would not stop talking about it till it ends. i am sorry. nothing really personal.





.

 

[Smoke]

Apparently we didn't do a well enough job taming and civilizing the savages.

Nonsense! They're obviously following traditional, biblical values.

Seems to me that it was not to long ago in the USA that women had to actually force the idea that they were equal down the mens throats...

I have a copy of the will of my fourth-great-grandfather, who died aged 43 in 1824. He left everything to his children, but made the following provision for his wife:

I will that the Tract of Land whereon I now live together with my House and out Houses and other improvements thereon shall be and belong to my beloved Wife Christina during her natural Life or so long as she remains my Widow for the purpose of raising and maintaining my Children and after the decease of my Wife or if she marry then my Executors shall make a public Sale amongst my then surviving Children and the highest bidder shall be the purchaser and the proceeds thereof shall be divided as mentioned Article the 3rd. ...

All the provisions in dividing grain and forrage on hand at my decease shall remain to the use of my beloved Wife for the maintenance of the Children - and all my Household and Kittchen furniture of whatsoever discription shall be and belong to my beloved Wife for her use as long as she may live or marry and after such term of her decease or marriage my Executors shall proceed the same way as mentioned in Article the 3rd.
​

In other words, if my 4th-great-grandmother, who was 42 when she was widowed, had remarried, she'd have walked away with nothing.

When my great-grandmother decided to buy a plot of land from her father in 1886, she had to file a document at the county courthouse showing that she had her husband's written permission to do business in her own name. One of her daughters-in-law had to file the same kind of document twenty years later.

 

[Alceste]

i am unsure about that. OK, they do point whatever go against human rights, i agree. but the locations they chose is where Western troops are. there's been a genocide in Turkistan, you know China do extremely violent things to Uyghur Turks. it would be spoken about for a day or two. or Chechen people are almost 'don't even exist' even though Chechen society had to leave homes and continue their lives in woods to survive from Russians. how often do you hear about them? can you really say you hear about them as much as you hear about Afghanistan? i can not even see one single Chechen on the net. so, yes, i agree with you some ways but even human rights organizations pull attention to certain regions of the planet. Afghanistan is going to be number one.

HRW Detailed Report on Chechnya
HRW Detailed Report on Uighur Turks

The locations Human Rights Watch chooses are the locations where Human Rights abuses are occurring, period.

If you don't believe me, check it out for yourself: they have 11 pages of reports on Human Rights abuses in the United States, and only 6 pages on Afghanistan.

I will agree that the HRW reports and articles that make it into mainstream news in any given country will be critical of that country's enemies more often than the country itself. But that is not the fault of HRW. That is just how the mainstream media attracts viewers and sells papers.

In going direct to the source of information and skipping the middle man (news media), twinmama did the right thing.

you are Canadian too. what's this? are we having some Canadian invasion on internet?

You know it!

we can feel sad and sorry for Afhan women together, seriously we can. but i can not stop till it is over. soon you'd see more wars, my friend. many nations would get in war soon. Turkey, Iran and Syria. you'll see. forcing women to sexual relationship and giving no food in case she refuses.....it is just sick!!. i do not want to take one detail out of this mess and cry over it. that mess contains much more worse than this and that mess want us to talk about wrong doings of Muslims. i am not saying they are doing right by forbidden women to eat. you know it. but i am not willing to serve the ones who wants to end Muslims in Afghanistan..

I hear you. I agree that if I had to compare a law suggesting that men starve their wives if they won't have sex to actual bombs and bullets killing actual Muslims in Afghanistan every day, and decide "Which is more important"? I would say the killings, obviously. Forcing women to have sex with their husbands is pretty bad, sure, but not as bad as dropping bombs on people. Point taken. It's just that taking a moment to criticize the oppression of women in Afghanistan doesn't necessarily mean we are NOT also criticizing our own - admittedly more worrying - bombs and bullets. Neither is acceptable.

BTW, I don't agree with the posters who believe the religion of Islam is the cause of this law. Violence and ignorance are the cause of it. Islam is just the excuse - it could just as easily have been Christianity, or Confucianism. Those also could be interpreted to have some very strict and stupid rules against women that would be just as bad if some benighted jerk wrote them into law.

 

[Alceste]

Nonsense! They're obviously following traditional, biblical values.

I have a copy of the will of my fourth-great-grandfather, who died aged 43 in 1824. He left everything to his children, but made the following provision for his wife:

I will that the Tract of Land whereon I now live together with my House and out Houses and other improvements thereon shall be and belong to my beloved Wife Christina during her natural Life or so long as she remains my Widow for the purpose of raising and maintaining my Children and after the decease of my Wife or if she marry then my Executors shall make a public Sale amongst my then surviving Children and the highest bidder shall be the purchaser and the proceeds thereof shall be divided as mentioned Article the 3rd. ...

All the provisions in dividing grain and forrage on hand at my decease shall remain to the use of my beloved Wife for the maintenance of the Children - and all my Household and Kittchen furniture of whatsoever discription shall be and belong to my beloved Wife for her use as long as she may live or marry and after such term of her decease or marriage my Executors shall proceed the same way as mentioned in Article the 3rd.
​

In other words, if my 4th-great-grandmother, who was 42 when she was widowed, had remarried, she'd have walked away with nothing.

When my great-grandmother decided to buy a plot of land from her father in 1886, she had to file a document at the county courthouse showing that she had her husband's written permission to do business in her own name. One of her daughters-in-law had to file the same kind of document twenty years later.

Good reminders, Smoke. Whenever I am feeling frustrated with the pace of social progress, I try to keep in mind that my own Grandmother - still living - was not a legally recognized "person" in Canada until she was 10. That's actually quite a lot of progress for one lifetime.

 

[Smoke]

Violence funded by Western democracies is what brought these neanderthals into power in the first place. Afghanistan was a secular country in the 70's, with women working, sending their daughters to school, driving cars, walking around on the streets whenever they damn well felt like it, and their rights enshrined in law. The establishment of an Islamic state in 1992 under the mujahideen and the rise in power of warlords like the current ruler was a direct result of anti-communist violence funded and supported by Western democracies.

Exactly.

 

[Ukonkivi]

I have no trust on what the media say about Afghanistan.
The media misinterpret everything there.

I would certainly like to believe it's not true.

 

[.lava]

I will agree that the HRW reports and articles that make it into mainstream news in any given country will be critical of that country's enemies more often than the country itself. But that is not the fault of HRW. That is just how the mainstream media attracts viewers and sells papers.

that's good to know. thanks for taking time and replying

we discuss Canadian invasion later someday :rainbow1:





.

 

[twinmama]

This law has gone back and forth in Afganistan but because there is election(well, was - first results come on Saturday)and current president needs votes - he buys them. This law was just one action he made to guarantee votes. What makes this religious is that on the paper this law is only for Shi'a muslims but of course the situation for women and especially girls in Afganistan is beyond horrible.

Regards to media. At least here in Europe main media reports quite equally about human rights violations all over the world. So any European who bothers to follow news certainly knows what is happening to Chinese minorities, how aboriginals are treated in Australia or HR violation in USA - not to mention European countries themselves.

Regards to animals - actually there are several animal spieces who show ability to choose, who clearly have moral behaviour and so on. I highly recommendate reading the latest studies from animal research field.

Naming stoned rape victims? Oh but the list is too long and I have to go - I just give one example; Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow. She was visiting her grandmom and was raped. She was found guilty under Shariah. About 50 men stoned her to death in Somalia.

She was 13 years old.

 

[Shia Islam]

Subjective Point of View

Really doesn't matter if you trust it or not, I am sure most Germans did not believe the Wests broadcasts of Nazi gas chambers, either. The point is, is it fiction or fact?

Cheers

You just take reports coming From Afghanistan at face value. Anyone who knows how current wars are fought won’t.

When you hear someone who is responsible for crimes against humanity in Afghanistan overcriyng about how some Afghan husbands treat their wives, you just tell hem :….. .

No woman suffers more than the western women, do you know the estimation of the number of females raped every week in those over-drinking nations? and I am talking about those females who choose not to report the incidents.

 

[Sunstone]

No woman suffers more than the western women, do you know the estimation of the number of females raped every week in those over-drinking nations? and I am talking about those females who choose not to report the incidents.

I think you might be naive to suggest that Western women are being raped at rates higher than found elsewhere. It seems that in many parts of the world rapes are not reported nearly as well as they are in the West. Rather than suggest only the West has a problem with rape, you might consider whether it is not true the whole world has a problem with rape. So far as I'm aware, the weight of evidence suggests rape and violence against women are epidemic the world over. It is practically the shame of our species that women are mistreated to the extent they are -- to say nothing of how infuriating it is. And it does not help the situation at all to suggest the problem is found only in one culture or society.

 

[Tiapan]

When you hear someone who is responsible for crimes against humanity in Afghanistan overcriyng about how some Afghan husbands treat their wives, you just tell hem :…..
No woman suffers more than the western women, do you know the estimation of the number of females raped every week in those over-drinking nations? and I am talking about those females who choose not to report the incidents.

Are you seriously trying to justify the law past in Afghanistan last week?

A couple of thousand rapes sadly world wide maybe, but then you compare that low number with the many millions of women have now been basically made into slaves by law in Afghanistan.

Your joking aren't you.

Cheers

 

[MissAlice]

Rape is bad no matter where you live.

I really don't find justifying one culture over the other as verifiable proof nor find it excusable no matter what the issue is on this arguement. I think I'm going to have to agree with Sunstone and Tiapan on this.:yes:

Doesn't matter what country or religion this is happening in, it's a violation of human rights and it's bad.

Nuff said.

 

[Alceste]

You just take reports coming From Afghanistan at face value. Anyone who knows how current wars are fought won’t.

When you hear someone who is responsible for crimes against humanity in Afghanistan overcriyng about how some Afghan husbands treat their wives, you just tell hem :….. .

No woman suffers more than the western women, do you know the estimation of the number of females raped every week in those over-drinking nations? and I am talking about those females who choose not to report the incidents.

The numbers are high in the West because we actually count rapes committed by husbands against their wives. Those are by far the majority.