Non-Binary

[Shadow Wolf]

I disagree. As a personal trainer, I’ve dealt with gynecomastia and it’s rare that it looks like breasts, it usually looks like a swelling around the guys nipples, and with certain activities it is often uncomfortable, itches, and looks bad; but it in no way makes the guy have dysphoria.

They make what are basically breast binders for men, because it can definitely be noticeable.

In what way does the medical field address gender?

Intake paperwork, assessments, various screenings and procedures.
I've got to see health on all ends, as male patient, female patient and as a clinician. Sex and gender are there a lot.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yeah; the meaning is to the person speaking. But what good is it being meaningful to you if you are going to use the word as a description to someone else?

Well, you have to explain how you consider good should work in a society? Because that is in effect what these debates have always been about. What is good and how do we know that? And yes, there is more to it than that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That IS my point. The fact that in my scenario, to describe Sam as a woman means nothing to the person who divorces gender from biology.

Okay, so you are the kind of in effect objective authoritarian person, who decides meaning for other persons. You are aware that this idea also works on you. So your point is meaningless to you and everybody else, because I say so.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No. Doing it for aesthetic reasons and doing it ton confirm your gender identity are two different things; especially if gender has nothing to do with biological sex.

But of course it does. Why do you think men are less likely to be okay with having large breasts? Since you acknowledge it can happen in men, it is not accurate to say that a biological feature of men is not having large breasts. They get rid of the tissue because of a generalized perception that men SHOULDN'T have large breasts. It's literally gender affirming.

 

[Argentbear]

Surgery for gynecomastia is not gender affirming surgery, it is a medical issue.

Surgery is always a medical issue

 

[Kfox]

Post #316
Post #329

The question was how would YOU describe Sam; not how I or someone else describe her; and you never provided that answer. The point was to get you to attempt to define what a woman is; something you and others on this forum seem reluctant to do, which goes to my point that using man/woman as a description is meaningless when you divorce gender from biology.

 

[Kfox]

They make what are basically breast binders for men, because it can definitely be noticeable.

The person would probably have to be quite fat in order to require something like that.

Intake paperwork, assessments, various screenings and procedures.
I've got to see health on all ends, as male patient, female patient and as a clinician. Sex and gender are there a lot.

Okay; so you're talking about when gender affirming care? I see what you are saying, but that's not the same as giving an opinion about gender; that's just doing a medical procedure as a result of gender.

 

[Kfox]

Well, you have to explain how you consider good should work in a society?

Good = what is helpful. IOW how is it helpful to use woman as a description if everybody has a different idea of what it means to be a woman?

Okay, so you are the kind of in effect objective authoritarian person, who decides meaning for other persons.

No; I am a person with an opinion just like you and everybody else here; and I am voicing my opinion just like you and everybody else here.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Good = what is helpful. IOW how is it helpful to use woman as a description if everybody has a different idea of what it means to be a woman?

...

Helpful to whom and what if helpful is relative in some cases?

 

[McBell]

The question was how would YOU describe Sam; not how I or someone else describe her; and you never provided that answer.

I in fact did.
Post #316
Post #329

You expect me to describe someone I have never met or even talked to?
I have only the description given.

My apologies for not setting up for your punch line.

The point was to get you to attempt to define what a woman is; something you and others on this forum seem reluctant to do, which goes to my point that using man/woman as a description is meaningless when you divorce gender from biology.

Again, it is meaningless to you.
Does not mean it is meaningless to all.

 

[icehorse]

Once again, given the health benefits of breast reductions and mastectomies, is there any reason to deny young women the procedure when they wish to get it (for whatever reason they may have for getting it?) I don't see any reason to deny them, given the health benefits they will get with no harm to anyone. Would you deny any procedure with long lasting health benefits if it wasn't also something transpersons might seek?

I would say that the doctor(s) involved ought to come at each situation with the idea of "first, do no harm".

So broadly, if there are solid medical reasons, okay. But if there are emotional reasons, and the patient is young, I think an honest doctor MIGHT say "no, until you're older, you need talk therapy".

 

[icehorse]

Then why does the medical field say otherwise?

So far, the only definitions I've seen for "gender" and "gender identity" are circular or too vague to be meaningful.

 

[crossfire]

I would say that the doctor(s) involved ought to come at each situation with the idea of "first, do no harm".

So broadly, if there are solid medical reasons, okay. But if there are emotional reasons, and the patient is young, I think an honest doctor MIGHT say "no, until you're older, you need talk therapy".

What harm is being done?

 

[Argentbear]

I would say that the doctor(s) involved ought to come at each situation with the idea of "first, do no harm".

So broadly, if there are solid medical reasons, okay. But if there are emotional reasons, and the patient is young, I think an honest doctor MIGHT say "no, until you're older, you need talk therapy".

Having treatment for a birthmark is a choice based entirely on emotion, there is no medical need to apply a laser to a birthmark.
Should a young teen with a port wine birthmark covering most of their face be told to wait and be sent to a therapist?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The person would probably have to be quite fat in order to require something like that.

Nope. Men with noticeable breast tissue does sometimes happen. I don't doubt for a second what they feel must be very similar to a trans man feels about having breasts.

Okay; so you're talking about when gender affirming care? I see what you are saying, but that's not the same as giving an opinion about gender; that's just doing a medical procedure as a result of gender.

No, I am talking about things for even cis patients. Like how its not unusual for a woman to prefer a provider who is a woman.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So far, the only definitions I've seen for "gender" and "gender identity" are circular or too vague to be meaningful.

Try opening a dictionary and looking up masculine and feminine. The definitions are circular and useless to those who don't already understand at least understand the concept.

 

[icehorse]

Try opening a dictionary and looking up masculine and feminine. The definitions are circular and useless to those who don't already understand at least understand the concept.

I remain open to hearing good definitions.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I remain open to hearing good definitions.

Yeah, but for that we need good defintions of at least good, defintions, logic, evidence and the meaning of life as authorized by icehorse.

So in other words the world doesn't revolve around you or me.

 

[Kfox]

But of course it does. Why do you think men are less likely to be okay with having large breasts? Since you acknowledge it can happen in men, it is not accurate to say that a biological feature of men is not having large breasts. They get rid of the tissue because of a generalized perception that men SHOULDN'T have large breasts. It's literally gender affirming.

First of all a man with Gynecomastia does not look like a woman, it's just a swelling around the nipples. So a guy with Gynecomastia is not getting it removed to confirm his gender, he is getting it removed because it is unsightly and feels uncomfortable. This is not gender affirming surgery, it's corrective surgery

 

[Kfox]

Surgery is always a medical issue

I never said it wasn't.