North Carolina Magistrate refuses to marry interracial couple.

[Sonofason]

I can understand that you want people going to heaven and I can say that it's admirable if you think you are helping people get there by changing minds.

You don't know that gay people are going to hell. You don't know that ANYBODY is going to hell. Even assuming hell exists, you have no idea what god(s) will do with individual people. Maybe they have better relationships with this god than you do. You don't know. I was taught that Christianity does not require that someone is not a sinner (because everyone is a sinner, after all), it only requires that someone accept Jesus Christ as their savior. So murderers could be getting into heaven for all we know.

From my point of view, homosexuality does no harm to society and there are far worse things going on in the world than people of the same sex loving each other. In fact I encourage people to love each other. I see that if people are loved, and are allowed to be who they are, they flourish and live happier and more fulfilling lives than when they're told that they're evil or bad for being born a certain way. I think it's more important to focus on making this one life we know we get for sure and in doing our best to make it happy and fulfilling for the greatest amount of people.

According to what is written in the Bible, it is clear that many if not all of the authors' intent is to convince us of the importance of obedience to God, and that we repent from our sins. If the Bible is true, repentance is crucial to salvation.

Everyone sins...that is certainly true. However, we recognize that the sins we commit are a matter of the choices that we make. I can choose to steal someone's wallet, or I can choose to sleep with someone else's wife. But I would never say that I was born a thief, or that I was born to be an adulterer. Sins are a result of choice. And I can repent from those sins. While it may be difficult, depending on my dependency to those sins, I can turn around, change my ways, and do the right thing. But not so easy for the homosexual. These people identify themselves with their sins. They have convinced themselves that it is their identity, as if they had no choice. As if it were God's fault. Most of these people do not believe in God. How could they? They hate God for what they have determined that He has done to them. There is very little hope for them in my opinion. They must repent.

 

[Sonofason]

Yeah I get that you think that. I'm saying it would be nice if you would just live and let live - especially in this case where the people you're concerned with are harming absolutely no one.

And nobody is asking you for marriage rights.

I do live and let live. But here I say what I believe is right and true.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Here's something funny. I speak English. And based on what you are telling me, speaking English must be a genetic trait, as nearly everyone in my family speaks English. Crazy huh?

That is demonstrably false as if speaking English were a genetic trait then we would be able to predict that first-generation immigrant children from non-native English cultures will be unable to speak English. Obviously this prediction fails to establish a correlation. But if you were to claim that speaking and communicating is a genetic trait, we could predict that people in all cultures have ways of speaking - verbally and non-verbally - and not only is what we find, there are several facial expressions, tones of voice, and various other ways that we communicate that are universal. With sexuality, we do find that, universally, a sizable portion of the population displays and expresses same-sex attractions, and we even see same-sex actions rather frequently throughout the animal kingdom. This seems to suggest that not only are such sexual attractions likely to have at least some degree of genetic pull, it exist on a very basic and fundamental level, as many things on the body that are not inherently sexual can derive sexual pleasure and satisfaction, such as the anus, mouth, and nipples. And because parts of the body that are sexualized do frequently vary from culture-to-culture, it suggests a genetic component to being sexually attracted towards certain things, things that to some degree are culturally defined.

I don't care what you believe.

And we don't care what you believe. You can believe what you want, but it has no right or reason to be enacted as law on people who do not share your beliefs, as your beliefs are not universally held or even held by a majority anymore.

Where exactly are concubines condoned in the Bible? I'll need citations please.

From this statement, I can assume two things. One is you want to see the Bible clearly stating that concubines are ok, and several characters in the Bible, including King David, and god not speaking against it is not enough, or you just haven't read all of it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I say I am in NO way inhibited nor do I have strange sexual ideals.

What exactly is a "strange" sexual idea?

Since JoStories is blind as a bat stuck in Mr Magoo's eye

That is an image that is going to stick, LOL!

 

[Sonofason]

So, then there is nothing wrong with what ISIS is doing, as long as you and I aren't the target? I appreciate you including me in there, but isn't it wrong to intentionally kill any innocent person, no matter who they are?

I did not say that I think what they are doing is right. What they are doing is wrong. I can't stop them from acting upon what they believe is right. But if I know what they are up to, I can certainly try to stop them dead in their tracks. And if I ever get such a chance, I most certainly will. I'd prefer them all dead. But I can't go around killing everyone I don't trust just because their Islamic. I have to see them doing something wrong. And by the time I see it, it might be too late, right? But I could stop them I most assuredly would.

 

[Sonofason]

You have a beam in your eye.

Hard drives, processors, batteries, resistors, transistors, thermal paste, and plastic are a few of the things that a computer are made of that are not natural. The very way that electricity is controlled in them, is not natural. If we were actually committed to living "natural" lives, we wouldn't have them. Or medicine as we know of it in the West. Or oil-based products. Or paper. We would not have air conditioners or heaters, and you would never see terms like "artificial flavors," or even "natural flavors" (many times they aren't actually natural), or trans fats in any of it's forms, no growth hormones or candy for cows, and there would be no high fructose corn syrup or gatorade.

Sorry, I do not accept the generally accepted definition of the word natural. I believe human beings are also natural. Thus, those things that are made by human beings are also natural. But I see what you mean, and for that reason I concede. So what's the point?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So what's the point?

That you don't really actually give a damn about what is "natural," that you apply to things you approve of, even if it is very unnatural, but label things you don't like as "unnatural," even if it can be demonstrated that it is natural.

 

[Sonofason]

That is demonstrably false as if speaking English were a genetic trait then we would be able to predict that first-generation immigrant children from non-native English cultures will be unable to speak English. Obviously this prediction fails to establish a correlation. But if you were to claim that speaking and communicating is a genetic trait, we could predict that people in all cultures have ways of speaking - verbally and non-verbally - and not only is what we find, there are several facial expressions, tones of voice, and various other ways that we communicate that are universal. With sexuality, we do find that, universally, a sizable portion of the population displays and expresses same-sex attractions, and we even see same-sex actions rather frequently throughout the animal kingdom. This seems to suggest that not only are such sexual attractions likely to have at least some degree of genetic pull, it exist on a very basic and fundamental level, as many things on the body that are not inherently sexual can derive sexual pleasure and satisfaction, such as the anus, mouth, and nipples. And because parts of the body that are sexualized do frequently vary from culture-to-culture, it suggests a genetic component to being sexually attracted towards certain things, things that to some degree are culturally defined.

It's all learned behavior.

And we don't care what you believe. You can believe what you want, but it has no right or reason to be enacted as law on people who do not share your beliefs, as your beliefs are not universally held or even held by a majority anymore.

Irregardless whether or not my belief has a right or reason to be enacted as law, I will continue working toward that goal. I do not do what I do because I think I have a right or need a right to do it. I do what I think is right, despite my rights.

From this statement, I can assume two things. One is you want to see the Bible clearly stating that concubines are ok, and several characters in the Bible, including King David, and god not speaking against it is not enough, or you just haven't read all of it.

The Bible is full of stories about the relationships of sinful men with God. It doesn't surprise me that men or women would want or have concubines.
Now show me the verse where God condones having concubines.

 

[Sonofason]

That you don't really actually give a damn about what is "natural," that you apply to things you approve of, even if it is very unnatural, but label things you don't like as "unnatural," even if it can be demonstrated that it is natural.

Yes, when it comes to the word natural, I use it as I see fit. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's all learned behavior.

How we communicate is learned, but that we communicate is not - rather it is genetic, and we communicate in many ways without even having to learn how.

Irregardless whether or not my belief ....

You actually have the nerve to criticize the grammar of another? Over something that wasn't much of anything? And you make that blunder?

I do what I think is right, despite my rights.

As it has been pointed out already, that is much more in alignment with LaVey Satanism than Christianity. Do you honestly think Jesus wants you using your time to make everyone have to live in accordance to Biblical principle - by force - instead of taking care of the poor, teaching those among you, and living in harmony and fellowship with your fellow human beings?

Now show me the verse where God condones having concubines.

He didn't directly condone it, but out of all the stuff he punished that was something that never invoked his wrath.

 

[JoStories]

OOPPPSSSS!!!

I apologize for dropping out the needed clarifiers about who I was referring to--who YOU were referring to when I was referring to your story about someone else....

Arrrgh! Apologies apologies apologies!

I stand very abashed, and wish there was some way to correct that!

There, I edited my post to more clearly state that is was not about @JoStories !!!

LOL...no worries BeenHere. Its all good with me dear. Apology accepted.

 

[JoStories]

Here's something funny. I speak English. And based on what you are telling me, speaking English must be a genetic trait, as nearly everyone in my family speaks English. Crazy huh?

Language is learned through assimilation. Sexual orientation is at least partially genetic. The two are not synonymous.

 

[JoStories]

Where exactly are concubines condoned in the Bible? I'll need citations please.

2 Samuel 5;13.
Judges 19; 1-30
and as stated in the book of Kings, Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. And in Genesis 30, Jacob had 2 wives and handmaidens as concubines.

 

[JoStories]

Are you sure that the sin of eating porkand shellfish is related to the lack of refrigeration. I understand that consuming pork and shellfish can be dangerous to eat if not well cooked, but forgive me if I don't take your word for it that this is the reason for God's command. Why exactly did God tell us not to eat pig meat? I'm going to need a biblical quote from the Bible in order for your claim to hold any weight with me.

Leviticus 11; 4-6. No mention of refrigeration or cooking but rather simply about having certain types of hooves.
The chapter goes on to mention shellfish or rather those fish without fins or scales. And in fact, states that you are not to even touch either of the two.

 

[JoStories]

I don't care what you believe.

I don't care what you believe.

In my opinion you're wrong.

Everything you are saying seems rather arbitrary to me.

Given the above statements, I am rather curious what you are doing on a debate forum.

 

[JoStories]

Just a reminder.....
Since JoStories is blind as a bat stuck in Mr Magoo's eye, using a font as large as hers makes it more readable.
I highlight the text, & then select #6 in <T!>.

You do know that I love you Revolting, non? Kiss kiss darling.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Nope, those sites contain no such proof. Try again. Perhaps I missed something. Please cite the parts of those citations with the declarations showing the proof. I want to see the proof.

Did you not read the articles?

 

[SkepticThinker]

According to what is written in the Bible, it is clear that many if not all of the authors' intent is to convince us of the importance of obedience to God, and that we repent from our sins. If the Bible is true, repentance is crucial to salvation.

Everyone sins...that is certainly true. However, we recognize that the sins we commit are a matter of the choices that we make. I can choose to steal someone's wallet, or I can choose to sleep with someone else's wife. But I would never say that I was born a thief, or that I was born to be an adulterer. Sins are a result of choice. And I can repent from those sins. While it may be difficult, depending on my dependency to those sins, I can turn around, change my ways, and do the right thing. But not so easy for the homosexual. These people identify themselves with their sins. They have convinced themselves that it is their identity, as if they had no choice. As if it were God's fault. Most of these people do not believe in God. How could they? They hate God for what they have determined that He has done to them. There is very little hope for them in my opinion. They must repent.

Except the thing is, homosexuality is not like the things you describe here. It's more like your eye colour - something you're born with through no choice of your own. People who are heterosexual didn't choose their sexuality either (as I think anyone who's ever been attracted to another human being would know). It just is what it is. It is part of who a person is. How could it not be? I don't understand people who would say that their heterosexuality was not a choice but that somehow others' homosexuality is a choice.

So if sin is a result of choice then people who are gay have not sinned, since they've made no choice. And let me just ask you a question. Up until fairly recently in human history the LGBT community has been treated pretty appallingly (and in some parts of the world, still are). Why on earth would anyone consciously choose to be gay knowing that you will certainly face a lifetime of persecution, marginalization, abandonment, and even torture and death in some cases? It makes absolutely no sense unless it is something that an individual is born with.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I do live and let live. But here I say what I believe is right and true.

I have no quarrel with that.

 

[cambridge79]

Should Government employees be allowed to refuse to marry couples if doing so goes against their sincerely held religious views?

no they should be free to go and search for a job that suits better with their sincerely held religious views.

it's not that because someone is "sincerely" a racist or "sincerely a bigot" that his view should be somehow be held in a higher consideration in respect of normal racists or bigots.
Expecially when he is doing a public job, the government is not a toy for them to play with.