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Now that the door is open, where does it close?

idea

Question Everything
The US government isn't likely to be seen attempting to force churches to perform religious rites (matrimony, unlike marriage, is one) that they feel are against their dogma. The LDS church does, as we all know, have a somewhat infamous history of stepping over its side of the wall and attempting to (monetarily) influence if not outright enter political outcomes regarding the issue of same sex marriage in at least 2 states (California, Hawaii). Many people are of the opinion that if churches are going to continue to blur the line between church/state separation, they should be forced to support their communities the same way we all do: through taxes. The implications of that to churches are probably not going to produce mega churches for very long. ;)

Mormons do not have mega churches (we are one of the smaller Christian denominations). There is a difference between supporting political parties, or people vs. taking a stand on an issue. The LDS church is politically neutral when it comes to parties and candidates.

Please don't tell me I have to explain the concept of consent one again.

Do you believe that it should be legally permissible for an adult to have sex with a brainwashed child who gives their consent? MBLA claims they only participate in consensual relationships.

...don't become a business owner.

It is religious persecution to not allow someone with a particular belief to own and operate a business according to their own morals.

Should a vegetarian Hindu be forced to serve meat at their restaurant?
Should Mormons be forced to serve alcohol?
Should clothing stores be forced to make cloths for all shapes/sizes/ages/sexes?
No shirt no shoes no service? but that is discrimination too I suppose...

You believe that all businesses should be forced to serve all groups of people (or be shut down for discrimination)...

I believe that business owners should be able to choose who and when to serve, and that consumers should also have a choice of where to shop.

Don't like it? then don't shop there...

It is obvious now that the door is open, religious discrimination will be on the rise, which is sad.
 
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Marisa

Well-Known Member
Mormons do not have mega churches (we are one of the smaller Christian denominations). There is a difference between supporting political parties, or people vs. taking a stand on an issue. The LDS church is politically neutral when it comes to parties and candidates.
That's not totally how I remember California's Prop 8 kerfluffle going down, but I don't really see it as a point to argue with you with any hope of resolution. ;)

Do you believe that it should be legally permissible for an adult to have sex with a brainwashed child who gives their consent? MBLA claims they only participate in consensual relationships.
No, what I think is that we already have laws which state the legal age of consent. ;)

It is religious persecution to not allow someone with a particular belief to own and operate a business according to their own morals.

Should a vegetarian Hindu be forced to serve meat at their restaurant?
Should Mormons be forced to serve alcohol?
Should clothing stores be forced to make cloths for all shapes/sizes/ages/sexes?
No shirt no shoes no service? but that is discrimination too I suppose...

You believe that all businesses should be forced to serve all groups of people (or be shut down for discrimination)...
Let's see . . . I'm not a bigot when I point out someone else's bigotry, nor am I intolerant when I point out someone else's intolerance. Religious people are not, despite popular belief, afforded the privilege of approving or disapproving of how others live their lives, and religious persecution is the action of using one's religion to discriminate against someone else because they somehow violate a tenent of that belief.

I believe that business owners should be able to choose who and when to serve, and that consumers should also have a choice of where to shop.
I don't. Because, you know, civil rights.

Don't like it? then don't shop there...
The guy here in TN that owns the hardware store got dumped by UHaul when he put his "no gays allowed" sign up.
Yes, RFRA laws make it possible for people to turn customers away because they have a magical belief. Ho hum.
 

idea

Question Everything
Let's see . . . I'm not a bigot when I point out someone else's bigotry, nor am I intolerant when I point out someone else's intolerance. Religious people are not, despite popular belief, afforded the privilege of approving or disapproving of how others live their lives, and religious persecution is the action of using one's religion to discriminate against someone else because they somehow violate a tenent of that belief.


Owning a private business does not infringe on the rights of others, nor does specializing in one area of service make one a bigot.

Chick-fil-A Sales Skyrocket Today, LGBTQ Boycott BACKFIRES
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Unless you quote my post or put an @ next to my name, I do not get a notification of your reply. Sorry I missed this.

JayJayDee, you and my mother could be best friends.
She tried to control every aspect of my life too, and still does.

I never controlled every aspect of my children's lives. That is not healthy. I raised my children with good principles and allowed them at times to experience the consequences of their choices. This is how God teaches us. But every parent is under obliagation to protect their children, physically, mentally and morally.

She overly sheltered me.
She is a leading member of the PTA group that killed science classes in my schools.
She treated me like a puppy that needed to be raised not to **** on the floor.
She restricted heavily what shows I could watch, when, and how long.
She gave me only one option in any scenario that she thought related to religion.

Again, control is not the way to go. Unless you sit down with your kids and actually explain why you are restricting them from activities that you consider morally or spiritually damaging, there is no point in just being the police in jackboots. That just invites rebellion.

and when I rejected all that, she disowned me.
Would you disown your kids for your religion?

Disown them? No! Condone their behaviour if it was totally offensive to me? Never.
When we become adults, we are accountable for our own behaviour. We all reap what we sow and sometimes the disappointment that comes with a parent's reasonable expectations of their children, does not lead to a good relationship with their adult children. Just because you love the person, doesn't mean you have to love what they do. You just don't want to be in the company of someone whose behaviour is foreign or unacceptable to you. Who does?

I ask that under the assumption you have kids that are young or intend to have kids one day.
You seem the type that would, but at the same time I kinda think you wouldn't.

You don't know me and yet you make assumptions about what type of person I am and what I would or wouldn't do?

I am a grandparent of four, mother of two. I have raised my children to be successful and responsible adults. But my grandchildren are another story. My oldest is lost in the world, having completely rejected her spiritual upbringing by very loving and generous parents. She is tattooed from head to foot and is suffering all the consequences of very bad lifestyle choices. She knew where these choices would lead her but chose them anyway. Who can she blame for her troubles? Her parents? Or herself? No one forced her to choose that lifestyle and I can tell you she hates her life. She is broke and her so called friends are no help. She is freakish in appearance, so who would employ her except a tattoo parlour? Her anxiety and depression have led to many hospital admissions. Yet she will not stop her behaviors.

Should she come home and bring her troubles with her? Would her parents be unreasonable to expect some lifestyle changes if she did? Would they be unreasonable if she refused to change her ways and they asked her to leave? As an adult, they are not responsible for her.

It would have been an incredibly different outcome if she had not rebelled. So sometimes we have to sleep in the bed we have made for ourselves. If you know the story of the prodigal son, you will appreciate the terms on which the father accepted his son back with rejoicing.

You'd have to be a pretty big b***h to just reject your child for something so subjective.
Then again Jesus did basically say to love him more than your family or no Heaven for you.
Matthew 10 | ReligiousForums.com
10:37

Funny how you would say that. Why would I be a b***h for rejecting my child's unacceptable behaviour?

They would have to leave that behaviour behind if they wanted my acceptance. What does that make us if we enable someone to be a dreg and a drain on society? They are fully capable of making their own choices so they can wear the consequences. Why is that not fair?

Jesus said he came to cause "division" in families. Why would he say something like that?
Because failure on the part of family members to uphold his teachings puts them outside of his means of salvation.
If family members reject the principles by which Jesus said we must live...then they have no part in that arrangement.
We have to choose between that family member and God....between our own salvation and their choices. Adam chose to side with his disobedient wife...where did that get him and the family that would come from him? There's the lesson...do we still not get it?

Don't know if JWs follow all that or not, never cared enough to really find out.
Then again I never cared enough about Christianity as a whole to figure out which part believes whatever.

JW's are not mamby-pamby when it come to their principles. We stick by what is taught in scripture....not in a tyrannical manner but lovingly. We don't force our children to be Christians, but expect that as long as they live within the family unit, that they will abide by the rules of the house. Those who do not wish to comply will not be treated with kid gloves. We believe in discipline because there is nothing in this world like being in the company of undisciplined brats.

There is no place for rebels in a family because rebels destroy families. God knows this all too well. Therefore if a child comes of age and wishes to live life their way, heartbroken parents will not stop them. Like the prodigal son, we hope that they will learn from their experiences to appreciate what they had and treated with disdain.
The way back is always open...but not without the necessary changes.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
Unless you quote my post or put an @ next to my name, I do not get a notification of your reply. Sorry I missed this.



I never controlled every aspect of my children's lives. That is not healthy. I raised my children with good principles and allowed them at times to experience the consequences of their choices. This is how God teaches us. But every parent is under obliagation to protect their children, physically, mentally and morally.



Again, control is not the way to go. Unless you sit down with your kids and actually explain why you are restricting them from activities that you consider morally or spiritually damaging, there is no point in just being the police in jackboots. That just invites rebellion.



Disown them? No! Condone their behaviour if it was totally offensive to me? Never.
When we become adults, we are accountable for our own behaviour. We all reap what we sow and sometimes the disappointment that comes with a parent's reasonable expectations of their children, does not lead to a good relationship with their adult children. Just because you love the person, doesn't mean you have to love what they do. You just don't want to be in the company of someone whose behaviour is foreign or unacceptable to you. Who does?



You don't know me and yet you make assumptions about what type of person I am and what I would or wouldn't do?

I am a grandparent of four, mother of two. I have raised my children to be successful and responsible adults. But my grandchildren are another story. My oldest is lost in the world, having completely rejected her spiritual upbringing by very loving and generous parents. She is tattooed from head to foot and is suffering all the consequences of very bad lifestyle choices. She knew where these choices would lead her but chose them anyway. Who can she blame for her troubles? Her parents? Or herself? No one forced her to choose that lifestyle and I can tell you she hates her life. She is broke and her so called friends are no help. She is freakish in appearance, so who would employ her except a tattoo parlour? Her anxiety and depression have led to many hospital admissions. Yet she will not stop her behaviors.

Should she come home and bring her troubles with her? Would her parents be unreasonable to expect some lifestyle changes if she did? Would they be unreasonable if she refused to change her ways and they asked her to leave? As an adult, they are not responsible for her.

It would have been an incredibly different outcome if she had not rebelled. So sometimes we have to sleep in the bed we have made for ourselves. If you know the story of the prodigal son, you will appreciate the terms on which the father accepted his son back with rejoicing.



Funny how you would say that. Why would I be a b***h for rejecting my child's unacceptable behaviour?

They would have to leave that behaviour behind if they wanted my acceptance. What does that make us if we enable someone to be a dreg and a drain on society? They are fully capable of making their own choices so they can wear the consequences. Why is that not fair?

Jesus said he came to cause "division" in families. Why would he say something like that?
Because failure on the part of family members to uphold his teachings puts them outside of his means of salvation.
If family members reject the principles by which Jesus said we must live...then they have no part in that arrangement.
We have to choose between that family member and God....between our own salvation and their choices. Adam chose to side with his disobedient wife...where did that get him and the family that would come from him? There's the lesson...do we still not get it?



JW's are not mamby-pamby when it come to their principles. We stick by what is taught in scripture....not in a tyrannical manner but lovingly. We don't force our children to be Christians, but expect that as long as they live within the family unit, that they will abide by the rules of the house. Those who do not wish to comply will not be treated with kid gloves. We believe in discipline because there is nothing in this world like being in the company of undisciplined brats.

There is no place for rebels in a family because rebels destroy families. God knows this all too well. Therefore if a child comes of age and wishes to live life their way, heartbroken parents will not stop them. Like the prodigal son, we hope that they will learn from their experiences to appreciate what they had and treated with disdain.
The way back is always open...but not without the necessary changes.

You answered what I wanted to know, that's all I really cared for here.
I did make assumptions as I have a very biased view towards Christianity in particular.
I know it's biased but do not care enough to do much more than control it.
It does, however, slip out sometimes as you have come to see, sorry about that.

Thanks for your answer.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Mormons do not have mega churches (we are one of the smaller Christian denominations). There is a difference between supporting political parties, or people vs. taking a stand on an issue. The LDS church is politically neutral when it comes to parties and candidates.

Hmmm..so what were all those churches I have visited in my travels, claiming to be Mormon, such as the one outside DC or the one in Salt Lake? They are quite massive and really quite an nice building. Of course, I could not enter them but I did see the visitors centers in each, among others, and these were by no means small little town parishes.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
Owning a private business does not infringe on the rights of others, nor does specializing in one area of service make one a bigot.

Chick-fil-A Sales Skyrocket Today, LGBTQ Boycott BACKFIRES
Never said it did. People don't choose not to patronize Chic-Fil-A because they are closed on Sunday's, rather because of the whole debacle surrounding the owners ties to the "kill the gays" Ugandan legislation. Most religious people hear a business/owner operates according to "biblical values" and never bother to investigate any further, then ***** at those of us who do and find things like that out. ;)
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Now that you said that...why don't you tell everyone what happens to a JW who grows up and chooses to live their life in a way that doesn't correlate with the Watchtowers rules 100%. For example, what do elders and congregation members do to a JW who makes up their mind and chooses to get a blood transfusion? What do elders and congregation members do to a JW who makes up their mind and decides to attend a gay wedding?

If you are speaking about those who have dedicated their lives to do God's will and not their own, then the answer is obvious. No unbaptized person would receive anything but loving counsel. But it doesn't make their choices any less serious, since the penalty is the same as for an unbeliever. What makes it worse is, that they know it's wrong, but do it anyway...that has to do with rebellion, not free choice.

The "Watchtower" has no rules. It is the Bible that has the rules and these must be followed or else we have been baptised in error. If we do not want to follow the Bible's instructions then we had no intention of doing God's will in the first place. Our own will was always more important.
The Bible says it is better not to make a vow, than to make one before God and fail to keep it. (Deut 23:21, 22; Eccl 5:4, 5)

You can look on the elders in the congregation as the big bad policemen, (which those who want to practice wilful sin often do) or you can see them for what they are...loving shepherds with your best interests at heart.

Regarding blood transfusions, God's law on blood is not negotiable. No faithful servant of Jehovah will transgress God's law to save his life. (Matt16:24-26) To break that law, someone had to be convinced that blood was not sacred to God at all, and that they could break this law with impunity if they thought it would be of advantage to them.
It is one of the few "necessary things" that carried over from the old law covenant to be binding on Christians. (Lev 17:13, 14; Acts 15:28, 29; 21:25)

To take "any sort of blood" blood into the body is a violation of a law that in Israel carried the death penalty. So taking blood is right up there with murder in God's eyes. Could we commit murder and not expect God's condemnation?

You think the elders would sit back and allow a brother or sister to make a decision like that and suffer no consequences? Counsel and discipline would naturally follow or else they would be neglecting their duty of care.

Those who would condone a gay marriage would also insult Jehovah's law on marriage. You would be condoning a marriage that is not, and could not, be recognised by God. Any sexual relationship between same sex couples puts them outside of God's marriage arrangement and therefore in the category of fornicators. If we consent to support their sin, we are no longer obeying God's laws. If we consent to others performing an activity that God condemns, we are also guilty of the same sin even though we did not personally commit it. (Rom 1:28-32)

You see, when we choose to become Jehovah's Witnesses, we relinquish our right to exercise our own will first in anything. This is part of our dedication vow. If we don't mean it...we should never make it in the first place.

No one who is baptised is ignorant of this fact.
 

averageJOE

zombie
If you are speaking about those who have dedicated their lives to do God's will and not their own, then the answer is obvious. No unbaptized person would receive anything but loving counsel. But it doesn't make their choices any less serious, since the penalty is the same as for an unbeliever. What makes it worse is, that they know it's wrong, but do it anyway...that has to do with rebellion, not free choice.

The "Watchtower" has no rules. It is the Bible that has the rules and these must be followed or else we have been baptised in error. If we do not want to follow the Bible's instructions then we had no intention of doing God's will in the first place. Our own will was always more important.
The Bible says it is better not to make a vow, than to make one before God and fail to keep it. (Deut 23:21, 22; Eccl 5:4, 5)

You can look on the elders in the congregation as the big bad policemen, (which those who want to practice wilful sin often do) or you can see them for what they are...loving shepherds with your best interests at heart.

Regarding blood transfusions, God's law on blood is not negotiable. No faithful servant of Jehovah will transgress God's law to save his life. (Matt16:24-26) To break that law, someone had to be convinced that blood was not sacred to God at all, and that they could break this law with impunity if they thought it would be of advantage to them.
It is one of the few "necessary things" that carried over from the old law covenant to be binding on Christians. (Lev 17:13, 14; Acts 15:28, 29; 21:25)

To take "any sort of blood" blood into the body is a violation of a law that in Israel carried the death penalty. So taking blood is right up there with murder in God's eyes. Could we commit murder and not expect God's condemnation?

You think the elders would sit back and allow a brother or sister to make a decision like that and suffer no consequences? Counsel and discipline would naturally follow or else they would be neglecting their duty of care.

Those who would condone a gay marriage would also insult Jehovah's law on marriage. You would be condoning a marriage that is not, and could not, be recognised by God. Any sexual relationship between same sex couples puts them outside of God's marriage arrangement and therefore in the category of fornicators. If we consent to support their sin, we are no longer obeying God's laws. If we consent to others performing an activity that God condemns, we are also guilty of the same sin even though we did not personally commit it. (Rom 1:28-32)

You see, when we choose to become Jehovah's Witnesses, we relinquish our right to exercise our own will first in anything. This is part of our dedication vow. If we don't mean it...we should never make it in the first place.

No one who is baptised is ignorant of this fact.
Now that you are done with your "No true JW would do those things" talk would you please answer the questions?

What happens to them if they make up their own minds regarding those subjects? How are they treated by everyone else in the congregation?
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
Now that you are done with your "No true JW would do those things" talk would you please answer the questions?

What happens to them if they make up their own minds regarding those subjects? How are they treated by everyone else in the congregation?
It's called bullying. A gang of them gathered around my 80 year old grandmother when she left my uncle's house because he was mistreating her and went to live with my atheist mom. My uncle was also so outstanding at imparting moral values onto his kids that one left home at 18 and hasn't returned since, and the other was taken away after threatening a female teacher for attempting to correct him in class. She wasn't a JW, and as a female had no authority over him. This is the same man who wigged out when my mother died and left her estate to me, rather than him. That was an interesting conversation, one of the best I've ever had to this date. Apparently I don't respect his position as head of the family. :D
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Now that you are done with your "No true JW would do those things" talk would you please answer the questions?

What happens to them if they make up their own minds regarding those subjects? How are they treated by everyone else in the congregation?
Already answered in some detail. You are an ex aren't you? I will never give you the answers you want. God will answer you soon enough.

Goodbye....that is the opposite of hello BTW.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
It's called bullying. A gang of them gathered around my 80 year old grandmother when she left my uncle's house because he was mistreating her and went to live with my atheist mom. My uncle was also so outstanding at imparting moral values onto his kids that one left home at 18 and hasn't returned since, and the other was taken away after threatening a female teacher for attempting to correct him in class. She wasn't a JW, and as a female had no authority over him. This is the same man who wigged out when my mother died and left her estate to me, rather than him. That was an interesting conversation, one of the best I've ever had to this date. Apparently I don't respect his position as head of the family. :D

And your family's experience is a reflection on the whole brotherhood? As is your one sided version of events.

Whatever you think, is your business. Judas was one of the 12...would you judge all of them by what he did? Seriously, you people are so bitter and twisted. I feel sorry for you.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
And your family's experience is a reflection on the whole brotherhood? As is your one sided version of events.

Whatever you think, is your business. Judas was one of the 12...would you judge all of them by what he did? Seriously, you people are so bitter and twisted. I feel sorry for you.
No. Some of these events were written up in the local newspaper. I love your instant jump to the defense of people you don't even know but happen to be MY FAMILY. That's priceless.

Don't ever make the mistake of thinking I'm bitter toward religion. My uncle was an ******* before he found the JW's. Now he just has a religious excuse for his assholery. The fact that I can read the bible and not feel the need to defend defend defend is not bitterness. It's just plain old reading comprehension.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you believe that it should be legally permissible for an adult to have sex with a brainwashed child who gives their consent? MBLA claims they only participate in consensual relationships.

Being brainwashed is NOT consent. It's a very simple concept, really. If a person is over a certain age, can prove they understand what they are doing and still fully wish to engage in sexual activity without being forced/manipulated legally speaking they can. (There is some leeway given to teenagers because you know........hormones and biology are a thing.)
MBLA are a bunch of self serving, self justifying pedophiles. They ignore law, they ignore basic science, they ignore the damage they cause to their victims and can easily be proven to be a danger to society.
A child is not emotionally mature enough to understand or properly cope with a sexual relationship. It causes demonstrative harm to them. They don't understand sex, the implications of sex or a sexual relationship. They cannot give consent, no matter how much they are manipulated to state otherwise. Even if they are highly intelligent children, that's not the same as emotional intelligence.
Gay people like heterosexual people have relationships within their own age brackets. (Of course there's cougars and sugar mamas/daddies and whatnot.) But you can't point to a consensual homosexual relationship between two consenting adults (or hell even teenagers) and then try to claim it is anything like a pedophilic relationship between abuser and abused. It's a spit in the face to victims of sexual abuse for one. And because children can't have informed consent, inaccurate.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hmmm..so what were all those churches I have visited in my travels, claiming to be Mormon, such as the one outside DC or the one in Salt Lake? They are quite massive and really quite an nice building. Of course, I could not enter them but I did see the visitors centers in each, among others, and these were by no means small little town parishes.
They weren't churches; they were temples. To Mormons, they are entirely different. Anyone is welcome to visit a Mormon Church unannounced, and every congregation has about 300 practicing members, all of whom live within a certain geographical area. Temples (like the ones you saw in Salt Lake City and just outside Washington, DC) are not even used for regular worship services and do not accommodate large groups like you would imagine a mega-church to.
 

dgirl1986

Big Queer Chesticles!
Wow...so sorry that your mother did that but speaking honestly, I'm not terribly surprised. My daughter was raped at 8 and to this day, she blames me, thanks to the d*ck who is her father. I have not seen my daughter in about 20 years and I will never get to meet my grandchildren. All in the name of religion and so on. So as I said, its not terribly surprising Default. However, that doesn't diminish how horrible it is. I am so sorry. Please know I completely understand.

It is hard for children to cope in family situations when something as horrible as this has happened to them.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It is religious persecution to not allow someone with a particular belief to own and operate a business according to their own morals.

Should a vegetarian Hindu be forced to serve meat at their restaurant?
Should Mormons be forced to serve alcohol?
Should clothing stores be forced to make cloths for all shapes/sizes/ages/sexes?
No shirt no shoes no service? but that is discrimination too I suppose...

You believe that all businesses should be forced to serve all groups of people (or be shut down for discrimination)...

I believe that business owners should be able to choose who and when to serve, and that consumers should also have a choice of where to shop.
But there's a difference between asking Mormons to serve alcoholic beverages and asking Mormons to serve beverages of any kind to Catholics. If a Mormon-owned restaurant chooses not to serve alcohol, because alcohol is forbidden by the religion, that's one thing. But if that same restaurant chooses to serve Coke products, how is it conceivably okay to serve Cokes to Mormons but not to Catholics, or to heterosexuals but not homosexuals, or to Caucasians but not to African-Americans? Think about in the early days of Nazi rule in Europe when there were signs on the doors of stores, etc. saying, "Jews Forbidden." Surely you don't believe that's acceptable! And how would you like living someplace where say 95% of the businesses refused service to Mormons?
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
No. Some of these events were written up in the local newspaper.
And you believe things that are written in newspapers do you? Things that make news don't have to be true, they just have to sell newspapers. Since when did the truth ever get in the way of a good story?

I love your instant jump to the defense of people you don't even know but happen to be MY FAMILY. That's priceless.

Actually what's priceless is that you consider all JW's to be a reflection of the few who are bad examples.
No one is perfect and we cannot keep people out of our organization unless it can be proven that they have broken Jehovah's law. Come the judgment, any law breaker will not fare well, no matter what they call themselves. (Matt 7:21-23) You can't fool God.

Don't ever make the mistake of thinking I'm bitter toward religion.

From reading what you post..how could I ever get that impression? :rolleyes:

My uncle was an ******* before he found the JW's. Now he just has a religious excuse for his assholery. The fact that I can read the bible and not feel the need to defend defend defend is not bitterness. It's just plain old reading comprehension.

Or someone on a personal vendetta because another someone wasn't what they claimed to be. Don't look now but the world is full of those people....we are not immune. But no one escapes the watchful eye of the one we must all answer to in the end. He doesn't just see what's on the outside...he sees everything a person is.....and he hates hypocrites. That should be enough for anyone. No one really gets away with anything....calling yourself JW doesn't mean you are not accountable.

We don't judge Jesus' apostles by what Judas did.
 
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