Occultism

[InChrist]

I am concerned about people who allow others to influence all their thoughts and beliefs, forcing an even greater wedge between Man and God. You follow a religion of other men, their interpretations, their writings, their beliefs, etc. The only way not to do so is to have some self reliance at least. If you do not listen to what is "in your heart" you are just a slave to others beliefs and Will. If you are a creature of GOD, then why are you not looking into God's actual creation (you) rather than the words and writings of others? Do you care about God or others?

It is precisely because I am a creature of God that I do not look to myself, along with the clear awareness of my own imperfections and limitations. The scriptures attest to the conditions brought about by human sin and the second law of thermodynamics Shows that all of creation is in a state of deterioration. My hope is to look to God the Creator who dwells in perfection outside of this fallen world for wisdom and deliverance from this sinful, fallen state of death to eternal life in Christ.
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Galatians 2:20

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I used to be influenced by men/women and their writings, philosophies, religions, interpretations, etc., but now the only One I follow is Jesus Christ the eternal Son of God.

 

[1137]

It is precisely because I am a creature of God that I do not look to myself, along with the clear awareness of my own imperfections and limitations. The scriptures attest to the conditions brought about by human sin and the second law of thermodynamics Shows that all of creation is in a state of deterioration. My hope is to look to God the Creator who dwells in perfection outside of this fallen world for wisdom and deliverance from this sinful, fallen state of death to eternal life in Christ.

Each person is an individual, you are not responsible for Adam and Eve's sin. Besides, you are forgetting a few things. First, the serpent showed us we have free will. Second, that serpent was an agent of God because God created and rules over all, at least from a logical view. Third, the serpent was not the devil because the writers did not believe Christian mythology.

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;Galatians 2:20

See? You said it yourself.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I used to be influenced by men/women and their writings, philosophies, religions, interpretations, etc., but now the only One I follow is Jesus Christ the eternal Son of God.

Saying you follow God not man after quoting works of man. Nice

Well, it has been fun. I simply wished to state further thoughts, not get drawn back into this debate. You cannot help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.

 

[HerDotness]

Oh, for Whatever's sake! Not that ridiculous argument that completely misconstrues the second law of thermodynamics! Honestly, if more Christians would stay away from these "Easy Arguments to Defeat Non-Believers" websites, maybe we could get a decent argument from them instead of this kind of parroting.

If I had five bucks for every time I've seen one trot out this bit about the second law, I'd be basking on a beach in the Bahamas for life.

 

[InChrist]

Each person is an individual, you are not responsible for Adam and Eve's sin.

[FONT=&quot]I agree that each person is an individual and you or I am not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve. Nevertheless, being a human, with human nature, born form generations of humans who were tainted with the effects of the sin of Adam and Eve, I too was born with a sinful nature. This is what the scriptures teach, this is what King David, a man after God’s own heart knew about himself and this is what everyday reality shows to be true. Everyone is born selfish and no one must teach us how to be that way, it comes naturally.[/FONT]

Besides, you are forgetting a few things. First, the serpent showed us we have free will. Second, that serpent was an agent of God because God created and rules over all, at least from a logical view. Third, the serpent was not the devil because the writers did not believe Christian mythology.

[FONT=&quot]I believe freewill was given to humans by the Creator and the only thing the serpent shows us is rebellion and disobedience against the love of God. Yes, God created and rules over everything and He is allowing (temporarily) the rebellion which the serpent instigated, but that rebellion was not caused or is not condoned by God and He indicated that it would be dealt with (Gen. 3:15). You or I have no way of completely knowing what the writer(s) of the OT knew about Satan or the devil. Clearly the OT scriptures show that they had God’s revelation that demonic beings were behind the worship of idols or when one worshipped a false gods they were actually worshipping demons. I believe the scriptures are progressive in the revelation they give concerning the personality and nature of Satan. As they are in many areas, as the Creator has revealed more information to humanity throughout history by the prophets culminating in the ultimate revelation of Himself in the Messiah.[/FONT]

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;Galatians 2:20

See? You said it yourself.

[FONT=&quot]What I am saying and as this scriptures states is that my sinful nature or self is crucified and dead and through faith in Christ (not myself) I now have new life (Christ’s life) in me. [/FONT]

Saying you follow God not man after quoting works of man. Nice

[FONT=&quot]You have to take into consideration that I believe the scriptures to be God’s Word. From my perspective men were used by Him to record the written words, but they are His words, not those of men.


[/FONT]

Well, it has been fun. I simply wished to state further thoughts, not get drawn back into this debate. You cannot help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.

[/quote]

If you don't want to get drawn back in or discuss this further I understand and sincerely thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

[atropine]

All methods of seeking to unveil hidden knowledge, ascertain future events, uncover secret wisdom, or exercise supernatural power outside of God’s revelation are all forms of occultism and are condemned as sorcery by God in the scriptures, for good reason. They are dangerous and open one to the lies, deception, bondage and control of Satan.

So, were the Ancient Egyptians all Satanists, then?

 

[InChrist]

So, were the Ancient Egyptians all Satanists, then?

I cannot know the heart and mind of each individual ancient Egyptian. The ancient Egyptian practice of worshippimg numerous false gods was inspired by Satan according to the scriptures, but I would not say that the Egyptians were Satanists as in someone who directly chooses to follow or worship Satan.

 

[atropine]

How do you know that their gods were false...?

Why would Satan bother with creating fake gods, when he could have inspired the idea that there were no gods at all?

 

[InChrist]

How do you know that their gods were false...?

The scriptures say they were false and record the power which the True God demonstrated over any power of the gods of Egypt.

Why would Satan bother with creating fake gods, when he could have inspired the idea that there were no gods at all?

[/quote]

Satan inspires humans to create false gods as well as he inspires the belief in no gods at all...whatever works to turn humans away from knowing the real God and Creator is fine by him.

 

[1137]

I believe freewill was given to humans by the Creator and the only thing the serpent shows us is rebellion and disobedience against the love of God.

So you are simply saying that God gave us free will, but did not want us to know about it, and the Serpent revealed it to us? I can live with that.

What I am saying and as this scriptures states is that my sinful nature or self is crucified and dead and through faith in Christ (not myself) I now have new life (Christ’s life) in me.

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;Galatians 2:20

This is stating exactly what we have been saying and yet you still cannot see it. It shows the overwhelming evidence of mysticism / occultism in your holy book. The power of Christ, therefore the power of God, is in you. Therefore, you can utilize your Self power and still be dealing with God. Simple.

You have to take into consideration that I believe the scriptures to be God’s Word. From my perspective men were used by Him to record the written words, but they are His words, not those of men.

Well, that is your own fault, not mine. It is taught by men that the words written by men are from God. So, you are still believing the word of man, the men who said it is God's word.

but I would not say that the Egyptians were Satanists as in someone who directly chooses to follow or worship Satan.

You don't understand occultism, and apparently do not understand Satanists and Satanism either. Actually, the only people who worship the Devil of Christianity are Devil Worshiper, a rare group who are, in fact, Christian. The funny thing is you can actually have a logical argument in favor of Devil Worshiping based on Christian beliefs.

The scriptures say they were false and record the power which the True God demonstrated over any power of the gods of Egypt.

There is no evidence backing the story of the Jews in Egypt. It is metaphorical for the power of God. I will be reminding my family of this at the Seder tonight as well. However, you claim that these gods are not real, but then say that they had power. Please be consistent.

Satan inspires and creates false gods as well as he inspires the belief in no gods at all...whatever works to turn humans away from knowing the real God and Creator is fine by him.

So what you are saying is that your God could be Satan posing as a different entity, as doing so has turned the majority of the world away from the real God? I can live with that one too. Although I would add that this entity is probably just testing humanity looking for those worthy, and the majority are failing.

 

[InChrist]

So you are simply saying that God gave us free will, but did not want us to know about it, and the Serpent revealed it to us? I can live with that.

That is not exactly what I am saying. God was not hiding free will, nor was the serpent revealing it. I have no doubt that Adam and Eve knew they had freewill. What God allowed through the serpent was a test of their trust or obedience to Him. Sadly, instead of trusting the goodness of their Creator they trusted the lie of the serpent.

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;Galatians 2:20

This is stating exactly what we have been saying and yet you still cannot see it. It shows the overwhelming evidence of mysticism / occultism in your holy book. The power of Christ, therefore the power of God, is in you. Therefore, you can utilize your Self power and still be dealing with God. Simple.

The power of God in my life through Christ is a truth revealed by the scriptures and one which I experience, but it is not mystical or occultic. God's truth is the reality of how He has chosen to do things...it is His work and power, not mine. When this truth is tweaked and twisted to become something a human attains by their own ability then it crosses the line into occultism and the lie of the serpent.

Well, that is your own fault, not mine. It is taught by men that the words written by men are from God. So, you are still believing the word of man, the men who said it is God's word.

The scriptures claim to be God's Word and do not come across as the words of men.

You don't understand occultism, and apparently do not understand Satanists and Satanism either. Actually, the only people who worship the Devil of Christianity are Devil Worshiper, a rare group who are, in fact, Christian. The funny thing is you can actually have a logical argument in favor of Devil Worshiping based on Christian beliefs.

You are probably right that I don't understand Satanists.

There is no evidence backing the story of the Jews in Egypt. It is metaphorical for the power of God. I will be reminding my family of this at the Seder tonight as well. However, you claim that these gods are not real, but then say that they had power. Please be consistent.

They displayed supernatural power given by Satan. He has limited power on a small scale compared to God the Creator, but it appears very powerful to mere humans.

So what you are saying is that your God could be Satan posing as a different entity, as doing so has turned the majority of the world away from the real God? I can live with that one too.

I am not saying that at all.

Although I would add that this entity is probably just testing humanity looking for those worthy, and the majority are failing.

The only test is who will each person follow: the Creator of heaven and earth who loves and desires to bless His creatures for eternity or the Satan the deceiver who uses every means to flatter the pride of self and capture the hearts and minds of anyone he can for destruction.

 

[InChrist]

There is no evidence backing the story of the Jews in Egypt.

Your own family and all the generations of Jewish people continuing to celebrate Passover throughout history, from one generation to the next, in whatever country they have been scattered, and in spite of persecution and numerous attempts of annihilation is testimony and proof of the Jews in Egypt and their deliverance by the hand of God. God gave the Passover as a memorial to all to generations to be a reminder of what took place, as so it has been and so it still is today.

I hope you can show your family some respect tonight and may you come to know the True God of your fathers.

 

[1137]

Your own family and all the generations of Jewish people continuing to celebrate Passover throughout history, from one generation to the next, in whatever country they have been scattered, and in spite of persecution and numerous attempts of annihilation is testimony and proof of the Jews in Egypt and their deliverance by the hand of God. God gave the Passover as a memorial to all to generations to be a reminder of what took place, as so it has been and so it still is today.

No, this is not proof of anything. It is likely there were Jews in Egypt, the amount of people around was much smaller and closer together back then. But even the stories of slavery are very out of context, the "slaves" of ancient Egypt were simply a working class of citizens. We have proof of this from the Valley of the Kings, where the "slaves" lived as our middle class does today (in a different respect of course). Throughout time, obviously, the conditions became much worse. But we are talking ancient times.

The stories continue more to show the power of God than actual events. You cannot tell me that you think the 10 plagues actually happened.

I hope you can show your family some respect tonight and may you come to know the True God of your fathers.

I am always respectful to my family, and them to me. We see each other multiple times a week and have a very close bond. Very normal in Judaism. If by "True God of my fathers" you mean your idea of God, I must say, it will never happen. My family rejects your ridiculous, simplified, flawed, unbalanced God. We accept that God is ALL, just and merciful, giving and restricting, he is all capable and perfect (balanced). Actually, my family believes the same general idea of God as I do these days. They always have for the most part, but I am the first one in the family to really delve deep into religious and philosophical studies, and to bring these ideas forth. We are far too committed to truth and logic to accept that the scriptures are literal, and that our God is all loving and incomplete, unable to protect his people from a supernatural demonic force. 6 million Jews and 5 million others were killed in the Holocaust. Jews in Auschwitz found God guilty of crimes against humanity, then they went and prayed immediately after.

I do envy your ignorant, comfortable, overly simplified views of reality, God, spirituality, etc, but I cannot believe such things. Neither will my family. We all believe in a much different, plausible, logical, realistic God than you do, so leave them out of this.

 

[InChrist]

No, this is not proof of anything. It is likely there were Jews in Egypt, the amount of people around was much smaller and closer together back then. But even the stories of slavery are very out of context, the "slaves" of ancient Egypt were simply a working class of citizens. We have proof of this from the Valley of the Kings, where the "slaves" lived as our middle class does today (in a different respect of course). Throughout time, obviously, the conditions became much worse. But we are talking ancient times.

The stories continue more to show the power of God than actual events. You cannot tell me that you think the 10 plagues actually happened.

I actually can tell you and do believe that the plagues occurred just as recorded. I don't understand why that should seem so strange after reading some of the beliefs you have.

I am always respectful to my family, and them to me. We see each other multiple times a week and have a very close bond. Very normal in Judaism. If by "True God of my fathers" you mean your idea of God, I must say, it will never happen. My family rejects your ridiculous, simplified, flawed, unbalanced God. We accept that God is ALL, just and merciful, giving and restricting, he is all capable and perfect (balanced). Actually, my family believes the same general idea of God as I do these days. They always have for the most part, but I am the first one in the family to really delve deep into religious and philosophical studies, and to bring these ideas forth. We are far too committed to truth and logic to accept that the scriptures are literal, and that our God is all loving and incomplete, unable to protect his people from a supernatural demonic force. 6 million Jews and 5 million others were killed in the Holocaust. Jews in Auschwitz found God guilty of crimes against humanity, then they went and prayed immediately after.

I do envy your ignorant, comfortable, overly simplified views of reality, God, spirituality, etc, but I cannot believe such things. Neither will my family. We all believe in a much different, plausible, logical, realistic God than you do, so leave them out of this.

[/quote]

I apologize if my mentioning your family offended you. I am sorry.

What exactly does this mean, "God is ALL, just and merciful, giving and restricting, he is all capable and perfect (balanced)"?

Do you believe God is guilty of the Holocaust and other "crimes against humanity" that have taken place in history? Is that why you reject the idea of a personal God as in the scriptures? Since humans have consistently demonstrated the ability to perpetuate every form of evil throughout history, why is God to blame rather than humanity?


Where Was God When Six Million Died?
Where was God When the Six Million Died? - Issues Volume 1 Number 5 - Jews for Jesus

 

[1137]

What exactly does this mean, "God is ALL, just and merciful, giving and restricting, he is all capable and perfect (balanced)"?

I mean that I believe God can be held accountable for both the good and the bad. I am thankful for all that happens to me, but I am not happy about all of it. I was always taught that it is ok to yell at God, hate Him, question Him. And I do this. I hate God for many reasons, I like Him for others, and I am respectful and thankful always. With the dualistic belief of God and Satan, God gets the praise while Satan gets the hate. I do not agree with this, because God is above all.

Do you believe God is guilty of the Holocaust and other "crimes against humanity" that have taken place in history? Is that why you reject the idea of a personal God as in the scriptures? Since humans have consistently demonstrated the ability to perpetuate every form of evil throughout history, why is God to blame rather than humanity?

I believe God is guilty of crimes against humanity. Hitler is responsible for the Holocaust, but God allowed it. For that, I hate Him. It is inexcusable. But I never said I do not believe in a personal God, infact it is quite the opposite. God is to blame, in a way, for manifesting this reality in the first place. If this reality was never created, the holocaust and other atrocities would never have occurred. I hold mankind responsible for their actions as well as what they do not do, same with God. Hitler is responsible for the Holocaust, God still allowed it. He is guilty of crimes against humanity.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

[/i]I mean that I believe God can be held accountable for both the good and the bad. I am thankful for all that happens to me, but I am not happy about all of it. I was always taught that it is ok to yell at God, hate Him, question Him. And I do this. I hate God for many reasons, I like Him for others, and I am respectful and thankful always. With the dualistic belief of God and Satan, God gets the praise while Satan gets the hate. I do not agree with this, because God is above all.


I believe God is guilty of crimes against humanity. Hitler is responsible for the Holocaust, but God allowed it. For that, I hate Him. It is inexcusable. But I never said I do not believe in a personal God, infact it is quite the opposite. God is to blame, in a way, for manifesting this reality in the first place. If this reality was never created, the holocaust and other atrocities would never have occurred. I hold mankind responsible for their actions as well as what they do not do, same with God. Hitler is responsible for the Holocaust, God still allowed it. He is guilty of crimes against humanity.

In the Beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. ~ Douglas Adams

 

[1137]

In the Beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. ~ Douglas Adams

I agree. Creation is almost the ultimate evil, especially if you hold my beliefs. I almost think that "God" Himself regrets it.

 

[InChrist]

[/i]I mean that I believe God can be held accountable for both the good and the bad. I am thankful for all that happens to me, but I am not happy about all of it. I was always taught that it is ok to yell at God, hate Him, question Him. And I do this. I hate God for many reasons, I like Him for others, and I am respectful and thankful always. With the dualistic belief of God and Satan, God gets the praise while Satan gets the hate. I do not agree with this, because God is above all.

I believe in being real and honest with one's feelings to God, David and the other prophets certainly were, yet I see no example of them hating God. After coming to know the living God I could never hate Him even when I may be very unhappy with life's circumstances.

What do you mean by dualistic belief of God and Satan?

I believe God is guilty of crimes against humanity. Hitler is responsible for the Holocaust, but God allowed it. For that, I hate Him. It is inexcusable. But I never said I do not believe in a personal God, infact it is quite the opposite. God is to blame, in a way, for manifesting this reality in the first place. If this reality was never created, the holocaust and other atrocities would never have occurred. I hold mankind responsible for their actions as well as what they do not do, same with God. Hitler is responsible for the Holocaust, God still allowed it. He is guilty of crimes against humanity.

[/quote]

Is it not possible that you being finite may be lacking in complete understanding of the reasons why an infinite God may have allowed the Holocaust or other bad events to take place? Is there any possibility that if you had a more complete perspective and understood things from God's vantage point you may see things differently? What if God who the scriptures portray as purely Holy and righteous had good reason for allowing what has taken place?

 

[InChrist]

In the Beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. ~ Douglas Adams

I really don't understand the arrogance that arises up within people to think they are smarter than God or know how things should be better than the self-existing eternal Creator, but I know this attitude happens because I've experienced it enough in my own life.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I really don't understand the arrogance that arises up within people to think they are smarter than God or know how things should be better than the self-existing eternal Creator, but I know this attitude happens because I've experienced it enough in my own life.

Kind of hard to question a being who doesn't allow themselves to be questioned.

 

[1137]

I believe in being real and honest with one's feelings to God, David and the other prophets certainly were, yet I see no example of them hating God. After coming to know the living God I could never hate Him even when I may be very unhappy with life's circumstances.

It doesn't matter to me if people in stories never hated God. I have, I was taught by family and my religious education that there is nothing wrong with it. Not hated God over all, but for things. I am free enough to hate him in my unhappiest circumstances, and I am sure God would respect that.

What do you mean by dualistic belief of God and Satan?

I mean I have a singular view of God, God as complete. Not God as one half of the dualistic nature of Good and Evil.

Is it not possible that you being finite may be lacking in complete understanding of the reasons why an infinite God may have allowed the Holocaust or other bad events to take place? Is there any possibility that if you had a more complete perspective and understood things from God's vantage point you may see things differently? What if God who the scriptures portray as purely Holy and righteous had good reason for allowing what has taken place?

You are really suggesting that I have a more limited view of God? You, who believes that everything about God can be understood through a simple book written by man and full of metaphors and contradictions? Not to mention the whole works aren't even present. Now, if you can excuse the murder of 11+million people that is your business, and hopefully that of your psychiatrists. I, personally, cannot forgive the slaughter of millions no matter what. Especially since this in not the only case of genocide. You honestly believe that God is all-loving yet has a reason for allowing the slaughter of billions, the rape of young children, the slavery of entire peoples, etc? That is a paradox, blatantly illogical.

The reason that God did not intervene is because salvation is up to US, you have proven my point. The Creator would not want to be equals with unworthy people, He would not reward those who accomplish nothing. Hitler was an evil man who killed millions. A MAN. And it was up to MAN to save ourselves from him. Same with spirituality. I do understand why it was allowed, and I still think God is an S.O.B. for it.