On Evolution & Creation

[walt]

No. Once again evolution does not work that way. They all evolved at different times. "Blood" or circulatory fluid evolved first. It would have started out as simple channels through the body like a sponge. Sponges are animals. Sea water flows through them. That is their "blood". Further evolution started a central digestive system with nutrients just flowing out. Then a closed system working by pulsations of the channels. Then some of the channels evolved more strongly in some areas than others and primitive one chambered heart evolved. At the same time other organs evolved as well. I can probably find an article on it if you are interested. This is well understood. It only appears to be a problem if one grossly distorts the process.

The Sun stays at the perfect distance from the Earth and the Earth stays the perfect distance from the Sun. Both never too close, both never too far away. To me this is a daily miracle, for the Huge Sun and our Planet to continue to do this very thing, everyday, since the beginning of human life, to me this is incredible!

 

[Dimi95]

No. I believe that God is the Creator of heavens and earth. I do believe that He set in motion what is perceived as life and living matter. Scientists have discovered what they term as RNA and DNA among other things. I do not believe each day of creation in the Bible is 24 hours long. I do believe, however, that God made the heavens and the earth, He set up the earth so life can be on it. By that I mean having the rays of the sun come through so vegetation and other life forms can flourish. And that's where I will stop for now.

I don't think i have ever been so confused on this forum with an answer like with yours.
You say No , and then you give us a reason why that "No" would be a "Yes" in the first place.

I advice to leave your set of beliefs aside and look into Evolution on its own terms.
It's science , nothing more.
Either that , either your God is not so powerfull..

You will have to excuse my words , i don't want to offend nobody , but that is just what i think.

I am so sad and mad at the same time that these ideas are the driving force of your(3rd person) understanding.
Even those who try to persue some crazy terms like ID, they actually know that life is possible only in the way of Evolution.
And they want to make numbers out of it.And i am so mad that most of them are Christians , so mad at that fact.
Apologetics is the worst way to enter the world of science , it is only tricks and nothing more.

You should know that today there are all kinds of analysis , and all kind of people doing them.And i am pretty sure that this discussion on Evolution & Abiogenesis is not a discussion of belivers and non-belivers.

I have checked that through multiple sources.

This is a discussion between two different group of peope with two diffefent understanding of reality.Haven't you taught doing some research about it?

To lack knowledge is not a bad thing, when you accept Evolution , it will change nothing , apsolutely nothing.

Just forget Abiogenesis and don't bother with it and be focused on Evolution if you want to learn honestly.

Out of 100 cases in court those who reject it will lose 101 times.

But i personally think that you don't accept it because you are JW, not because of Science.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Sun stays at the perfect distance from the Earth and the Earth stays the perfect distance from the Sun. Both never too close, both never too far away. To me this is a daily miracle, for the Huge Sun and our Planet to continue to do this very thing, everyday, since the beginning of human life, to me this is incredible!

No, that is basic physics. And the distance varies by around three million miles throughout the year if I recall correctly.

 

[walt]

I don't think i have ever been so confused on this forum with an answer like with yours.
You say No , and then you give us a reason why that "No" would be a "Yes" in the first place.

I advice to leave your set of beliefs aside and look into Evolution on its own terms.
It's science , nothing more.
Either that , either your God is not so powerfull..

You will have to excuse my words , i don't want to offend nobody , but that is just what i think.

I am so sad and mad at the same time that these ideas are the driving force of your(3rd person) understanding.
Even those who try to persue some crazy terms like ID, they actually know that life is possible only in the way of Evolution.
And they want to make numbers out of it.And i am so mad that most of them are Christians , so mad at that fact.
Apologetics is the worst way to enter the world of science , it is only tricks and nothing more.

You should know that today there are all kinds of analysis , and all kind of people doing them.And i am pretty sure that this discussion on Evolution & Abiogenesis is not a discussion of belivers and non-belivers.

I have checked that through multiple sources.

This is a discussion between two different group of peope with two diffefent understanding of reality.Haven't you taught doing some research about it?

To lack knowledge is not a bad thing, when you accept Evolution , it will change nothing , apsolutely nothing.

Just forget Abiogenesis and don't bother with it and be focused on Evolution if you want to learn honestly.

Out of 100 cases in court those who reject it will lose 101 times.

But i personally think that you don't accept it because you are JW, not because of Science.

So you believe everything became what we see now, how? Please, how did it start and finish?

If you cannot explain it's beginning and each step in between, why would you ever believe it?

 

[walt]

No, that is basic physics. And the distance varies by around three million miles throughout the year if I recall correctly.

How many million years of time between the heart, lungs and brain becoming fully developed?

 

[walt]

No, that is basic physics. And the distance varies by around three million miles throughout the year if I recall correctly.

Who designs life with evolution? Who does all the steps? Why does it take millions of years?

If you believe in evolution you should be able to answer these questions!

 

[icant]

I'm trying to reconcile your statements there...

On the one hand you believe the earth is "very old", on the other you claim "I am just a simple farm boy that believes if God said it I believe it because it is fact."

Can I ask, are you claiming the following are all translational errors? (may I suggest you "carefully read" the texts below BEFORE answering)

1. Genesis chapters 1 and 2
2. Exodus 20:8-11
3. Matthew 24:38&39
4. 2 Peter 2:5-7

Also, how do you explain Peter saying he recieved his revelation from 3 sources...
1. The writings of the prophets (moses was a prophet)
2. Christs ministry (christ speaks of Noah in Matthew 24)
3. Direct revelation from God in heaven (God revealed himself to Moses face to face, to the apostle John in dreams/visions)

If men mistranslated all of the above, which scribes stuffded up....Moses scribes, Mathews scribes, Peters scribes...who?

If Christians believe Gods word is authoritative and recorded faithfully, why would the scribes for all of the above lie to produce doubt in evolutionary theory given they wrote all this down 2000+ years ago before evolution theory arose?

Finally, are you claiming Christ (incarnate God) who created this world made an error in His statements about Noah and the flood in Matthew 24?

Since I don't know which translation you are talking about I will use the KJV as it is the most recognized and many of the newer ones used all they legally could and still get copyrights on their version.

In Genesis 1:1 the first mistranslation takes place in the second and third words being switched from Hebrew to English. The verb is before the subject of the verb not as it is in English. Which led to a big discussion of verse one and its entire translation which changes the complete meaning of the verse.

It properly translates as, "In the Beginning (all from one word) created (verb) God (subject of the verb) the Heavens and the Earth.
Genesis 1:1 is a declarative statement of completed action the earth was ready to be inhabited and was in Genesis chapter 2 verse 4 which starts the history of the day God created the heavens and in Genesis 2:7 the first lifeform was formed from the dust of the ground. Genesis 2:4- 4:24 gives us the history of the man formed from the dust of the ground and his descendants.
That is the original creation story.
Genesis 1:2 starts a completely different story in the KJV the first word is translated as a conjunction when it is marked in the original language as a disjunctive conjunction. The LXX translated it "Now" I think it should have been translated as "But". the word Hebrew word הָיָה translated "was" Is a terrible translation as it is not even mentioned in the definition of הָיָה. :Which is:

1. to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass.

הָיָה is translated as was in Genesis 1:2 and 3:1 and in not other place and as you can see it is not in the definition of הָיָה. In Exodus
Exo 3:14
And God H430 said H559 unto Moses, H4872 I AM H1961 THAT I AM: H1961 and he said, H559 Thus shalt thou say H559 unto the children H1121 of Israel, H3478 I AM hath sent H7971 me unto you.
I left Strong's numbers there so you could see הָיָה is the word translated I AM.

Lexicon :: Strong's H1962 - hayyâ

הַיָּה​

The next mistranslation is in Genesis chapter 1 is found in Genesis 1:5

I will get to the rest of your message later I have to go for now.

Enjoy,

 

[Subduction Zone]

How many million years of time between the heart, lungs and brain becoming fully developed?

What do you mean by "fully developed"? They were always fully developed in each organism. It appears that you are assuming that there is a goal to evolution.

 

[John53]

So you believe everything became what we see now, how? Please, how did it start and finish?

If you cannot explain it's beginning and each step in between, why would you ever believe it?

It's finished?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Who designs life with evolution? Who does all the steps? Why does it take millions of years?

If you believe in evolution you should be able to answer these questions!

There is no evidence of a designer. So I guess that the answer is no one.

I don't "believe in evolution". I can show that it is a fact. Do you believe in gravity?

 

[Dimi95]

So you believe everything became what we see now, how? Please, how did it start and finish?

Well , as far as i know - only one has the answer to that question;about the start and the finish of the ultimate and you are asking the wrong question to the wrong person.

And even if one knew the whole procces it would take more then a lifetime to understand it.

These answers you can't get them on a forum or in a discussion , these answers - you can get them by learning.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you believe everything became what we see now, how? Please, how did it start and finish?

If you cannot explain it's beginning and each step in between, why would you ever believe it?

We have this magical tool called evidence.

 

[walt]

What do you mean by "fully developed"? They were always fully developed in each organism. It appears that you are assuming that there is a goal to evolution.

Goal a functional heart, a functional lung, a functional brain. --- Do you expect a heart to pump blood If it is only partially developed.

Have you never worked on a project? In the beginning a project is nowhere near completed.

 

[walt]

Well , as far as i know - only one has the answer to that question about the start and the finish of the ultimate and you are asking the wrong question to the wrong person.

And even if one knew the whole procces it would take more then a lifetime to understand it.

These answers you can't get them on a forum or in a discussion , these answers you can get by learning.

Thanks for your honesty

 

[walt]

There is no evidence of a designer. So I guess that the answer is no one.

I don't "believe in evolution". I can show that it is a fact. Do you believe in gravity?

Yes I believe in gravity.

 

[walt]

It's finished?

Oh that's convenient

 

[Dimi95]

Thanks for your honesty

The thing that here most need to understand is that we are not trying to be smart to others , but we really want to show to others how they can learn from it.

Each field in Science has its own ways.
Biology is no different.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't think i have ever been so confused on this forum with an answer like with yours.
You say No , and then you give us a reason why that "No" would be a "Yes" in the first place.

I advice to leave your set of beliefs aside and look into Evolution on its own terms.
It's science , nothing more.
Either that , either your God is not so powerfull..

You will have to excuse my words , i don't want to offend nobody , but that is just what i think.

I am so sad and mad at the same time that these ideas are the driving force of your(3rd person) understanding.
Even those who try to persue some crazy terms like ID, they actually know that life is possible only in the way of Evolution.
And they want to make numbers out of it.And i am so mad that most of them are Christians , so mad at that fact.
Apologetics is the worst way to enter the world of science , it is only tricks and nothing more.

You should know that today there are all kinds of analysis , and all kind of people doing them.And i am pretty sure that this discussion on Evolution & Abiogenesis is not a discussion of belivers and non-belivers.

I have checked that through multiple sources.

This is a discussion between two different group of peope with two diffefent understanding of reality.Haven't you taught doing some research about it?

To lack knowledge is not a bad thing, when you accept Evolution , it will change nothing , apsolutely nothing.

Just forget Abiogenesis and don't bother with it and be focused on Evolution if you want to learn honestly.

Out of 100 cases in court those who reject it will lose 101 times.

But i personally think that you don't accept it because you are JW, not because of Science.

It is because I have put my trust in God and the Bible as His word. That is my choice. I realize there are parts hard to understand. I do not contest them because I believe in God and I also believe that is what He wants us to know in general about Him, life and the future. That is my choice based on faith and stufy after doing what I consider a good amount of research and prayer. By the way, it is virtually impossible, ok--change that to realistically impossible--to not consider how the first living matter appeared, i.e. what it was and yes, how it appeared. And then what happened to it. The theory about evolution is more like spontaneous chemically biologic reaction and here we are voila! after a real long time of things happening without any direction from an intelligence above and beyond what is known scientifically.

 

[walt]

The automobile today is very complex and has literally thousands of parts.

How about if somebody built a automobile complete with everything except [ the steering wheel was missing ], will the steering wheel ever show up all by itself, after a billion years of time?

Evolution does not include an intelligent designer or maker. So how many years would need to pass before the steering wheel would show up without the assistance of some form of intelligence?

 

[Dimi95]

It is because I have put my trust in God and the Bible as His word.

The Bible itself is not the Word of God.
You should know this by John 1