On Evolution & Creation

[Subduction Zone]

Are you here for a discussion or some agenda?

Creationists do not even seem to realize that far too often they are asking dishonest questions.

 

[John53]

The problem I have found with Evolution 101 is that if I have questions about what it says (and I have looked at it), will those here recommending it be able to answer those questions...

I'll have a sensible discussion about it if you want but if it's going to be your usual "monkeys didn't invent microscopes goodbye for now" nonsense then no thanks.

 

[Valjean]

I have no knowledge on evolution at all, could you please explain how the first breathing living species survives its first hour?
How are lungs in the first mother of the first species formed in the evolutionary process?

I touched on this in my previous post. The "first" breathing, living species had already been surviving for millions of years, with all the parts it needed to survive and reproduce. I think the concept of "first" is confusing you.
We know French evolved from Latin, so how did the "first" speaker of French communicate with his family and neighbors? See the point? Tiny, unnoticeable changes accumulating over thousands of generations.
In re: lungs. Not every species has lungs. Some species "breath" through their skin. Several million years ago, ie: recently, biologically speaking. Some organisms began venturing out onto the land. To make a complete transition, though, some means of gas exchange was needed, as gills wouldn't work well out of water. Several anatomic modifications of existing structures developed, such as modifications of swim bladders for gas exchange rather than buoyancy. Gradually, over thousands of generations, these became large enough, with enough surface area, for permanent gas exchange in air rather than water.
Again, like any other organ or anatomic adaptation, these were very gradual improvements. Evolution isn't a graduated succession of discrete models. It's a nearly unnoticeable transition over multiple generations.

A baby's lungs begin to form around 3–5 weeks into a pregnancy, a baby's lungs are usually fully formed by 36 weeks of pregnancy.

OK... Embryology 101?
Yes. Mammals have lungs. their ancestors, hundreds of millions of years ago, did not. They had no need for them.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'll have a sensible discussion about it if you want but if it's going to be your usual "monkeys didn't invent microscopes goodbye for now" nonsense then no thanks.

OK, but monkeys did not invent microscopes--not anything NEAR it -- did they? Yet these types of beings are supposed to be pretty close to humans, genetically speaking, of course. I'll stop there.
So would you like to systematically read Evolution 101 going over a section at a time perhaps and since you know more than I do, I guess you will be able to answer questions about what Evolution 101 says or means.

 

[John53]

OK, but monkeys did not invent microscopes--not anything NEAR it -- did they? Yet these types of beings are supposed to be pretty close to humans, genetically speaking, of course. I'll stop there.
So would you like to systematically read Evolution 101 going over a section at a time perhaps and since you know more than I do, I guess you will be able to answer questions about what Evolution 101 says or means.

Goodbye for now unless you can come back and have a sensible discussion without the nonsense.

 

[Valjean]

We humans have witnessed the process of evolution. You can find videos of experiments with bacteria on the net.

I'm surprised you haven't found them already.

Not just bacteria. Speciation's been observed, in human time, in larger, multicellular plants and animals, as well.
And we've been utilizing evolution's selective mechanism for thousands of years to breed desirable traits into plants and animals. Evolution works.

 

[YoursTrue]

The breeze cooling me on a hot day. The sun warming me on a cold day. The rain watering my yard. There's 3 without really thinking about it, no intelligence required.

Except some birds instinctively go south in the winter, they don't need real estate agents to find then a home to explore. May I ask what you think evolutionary scientists think as to yes, the how necessitated perhaps by why some birds instinctively migrate to warmer climates come winter time?

 

[Valjean]

A baby's lungs begin to form around 3–5 weeks into a pregnancy, a baby's lungs are usually fully formed by 36 weeks of pregnancy.

It takes many weeks for a baby's lungs to be fully formed, how does the first mother of the first species survive the first hour, when the mother's lungs will not be fully formed for many weeks?

I can understand how this process happens in the womb of its mother, but I cannot understand how this process happens for the first mother of the first species?

The first species was a microbe.

 

[YoursTrue]

Goodbye for now unless you can come back and have a sensible discussion without the nonsense.

Oh, I think it was a "sensible discussion." So be it. Perhaps another time.

 

[Valjean]

Please I am here trying to make sense of all this information.

Ask.

 

[YoursTrue]

Goodbye for now unless you can come back and have a sensible discussion without the nonsense.

You repeated the monkey business as I might have in the past, so I then commented on it. I might not have if you did not bring up about monkeys. All monkeying around aside...(it's ok.) I'm still open to it without bringing up monkeys not inventing microscopes.

 

[John53]

You repeated the monkey business as I might have in the past, so I then commented on it. I might not have if you did not bring up about monkeys. All monkeying around aside...(it's ok.) I'm still open to it without bringing up monkeys not inventing microscopes.

You proved beyond reasonable doubt you couldn't so bye for now.

You don't know the half of it about migrating birds. It's more amazing then you could imagine.

 

[Valjean]

So I've been reading about light-sensitive tissue. Since you know more than I do about these things, would you say these types of organisms (microbes with light-sensitive tissue) are still alive and around today?

Absolutely! -- and not just microbes.
I thought you said you were reading about them.

There are animals alive today exhibiting each step in the whole transition from "eyespots" to fully-formed, vertebrate eyes.
Did you have questions?

 

[Valjean]

I am not sure that was Walt's question as to a "complete first human" starting the human race. Maybe I'm wrong, but may I ask, since you mention a "fully developed" organism perhaps of sorts -- would you say a "fully developed" organism popped up from perhaps a soupy mass or perhaps flew in from outer space? I'm talking about the first living organism -- was it fully developed when it popped up, emerged, came about, or however you might call it?

OK, I'll take "fully developed" to mean able to metabolize, survive and reproduce.
Yes. I'd say such organisms did gradually assemble in some soupy mass. Minestrone, I'd guess...

This has been gone over multiple times, and multiple explanatory articles and videos linked.

As for flying in from outer space, that just posits a different venue. The question of origins remains.

 

[YoursTrue]

You proved beyond reasonable doubt you couldn't so bye for now.

You don't know the half of it about migrating birds. It's more amazing then you could imagine.

I imagine bird migration is yes, more amazing that I can imagine. Or maybe even what you can imagine.

 

[YoursTrue]

OK, I'll take "fully developed" to mean able to metabolize, survive and reproduce.
Yes. I'd say such organisms did gradually assemble in some soupy mass. Minestrone, I'd guess...

This has been gone over multiple times, and multiple explanatory articles and videos linked.

As for flying in from outer space, that just posits a different venue. The question of origins remains.

On that last note, I might say good night, and yes, the question of the origin of life by science does remain. Thank you. But then...but then...do you think it is possible to ascertain if science knows what the first living organism was.

 

[John53]

I imagine bird migration is yes, more amazing that I can imagine. Or maybe even what you can imagine.

I have done some study on it and assisted in others research by doing tracking but there is much I would still like to know. Unfortunately many migratory waders will soon be extinct.

 

[YoursTrue]

I have done some study on it and assisted in others research by doing tracking but there is much I would still like to know. Unfortunately many migratory waders will soon be extinct.

I can't say what the future will bring regarding those that may become extinct. Some years ago when some were thinking the earth was getting warmer there was a debate on about this. Some denied that the earth was heating up. What I am saying is this: the corruption of the earth's atmosphere seems to be jeopardizing many useful and intriguing forms of life. I don't know much about birds, I realize you like them. And I appreciate that. But the coral reefs are supposedly being destroyed and I believe these impairments are certainly causing destruction to many forms of life that are influenced by them. Much of this is due to mankind's greed regarding corruption of the atmosphere.

 

[Valjean]

I realize that about evolution is not about progress. (or is it) But the concept is (isn't it?) that a beneficial mutation causes those continuing the mutation to function better in their environment. In other words, survival of the fittest, or has that idea been given up.

Essentially yes. Not necessarily a mutation, but any source of variation provides a platform for evolution.

An arctic wolf has pups. Some are white, some black; some thick furred, some not.
The white, thick furred pups thrive, live long and have many babies. Their color and fur is passed on to most of their offspring. The traits increase in the population over succeeding generations.
The shorter haired, darker pups are shorter-lived and less reproductively successful. The traits just don't "fit" the snowy, arctic environment as well as their lighter, warmer siblings. The percentage of short-haired, dark wolves in the population gradually decreases.
That's natural selection in a nutshell. No planning. No design. No conscious manipulation needed. Gradual, unguided change happens.

 

[YoursTrue]

Essentially yes. Not necessarily a mutation, but any source of variation provides a platform for evolution.

An arctic wolf has pups. Some are white, some black; some thick furred, some not.
The white, thick furred pups thrive, live long and have many babies. Their color and fur is passed on to most of their offspring. The traits increase in the population over succeeding generations.
The shorter haired, darker pups are shorter-lived and less reproductively successful. The traits just don't "fit" the snowy, arctic environment as well as their lighter, warmer siblings. The percentage of short-haired, dark wolves in the population gradually decreases.
That's natural selection in a nutshell. No planning. No design. No conscious manipulation needed. Gradual, unguided change happens.

I understand that.