One God, One Saviour the Creator

[Nada]

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you, who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time. In this fact you are greatly rejoicing.”—1 Pet. 1:3-6.

4 The limited number of Christians chosen by Jehovah to be associated with Christ in the heavenly Kingdom government undergo “a new birth” as spirit-begotten sons of God. They are anointed with holy spirit to become kings and priests with Christ. (Rev. 20:6) Peter states that this “new birth” opens up to them “a living hope,” which he calls “an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance” reserved for them “in the heavens.” Small wonder that the anointed ‘greatly rejoice’ in their living hope! The realization of that hope, however, depends on their faithfulness.


Rejoicing in Our Hope — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[metis]

Correct me if I’m wrong. There is no room within Jewish theology to accommodate a god/man as told in the Christian orthodox interpretation of the canonical Gospels. If I’m right, then we have a little problem. Either the Christian orthodox is wrong or Jews do not know how to interpret their own scripture. If the Jews are wrong, it creates a sort of catch 22 problem, a problem that backs the most Christians into a corner with no means to escape. If Jews do not know how to interpret their own scripture, how can Christians trust the very concept of the Messiah? It is a Jewish idea. Maybe the Jews got that wrong too. Christian theology is based on Jewish ignorance of Jewish scripture. According to Christians, it takes a Gentile to explain Jewish scripture to Jews. Since Jews wrote the scripture itself, how can Gentiles trust any of it? It is absurd. Isn’t it possible the Gentiles didn’t interpret the Gospels correctly from the get go? Whoever wrote these Gospels were not your garden variety Jews. They were extremely well versed in scripture, educated and creative. They were written by Jews, for Jews, using Jewish theological ideas. The Gospels were never meant for Gentiles. The point I’m making is that the Gentiles never interpreted the Gospels correctly from the beginning. Much like existing scripture at the time, the Gospels use metaphors, symbolism and allegory to convey its message. The early Gentiles had read these books and interpreted them literal. I find it very peculiar that all the allegory ends with the Old Testament and the literalism begins with the New Testament.

I can accept the drift of your approach above, but me switch hats and defend the early church and the gentiles that eventually took over.

One thing we have to keep in mind is that the vast majority of Jews and gentiles back then didn't have a handy dandy Bible on their nightstand, so what they learned was mainly from word of mouth, whether that be in the Temple area, in synagogues, or early churches (which actually were synagogues, btw). When the Christian scriptures were written, and when the authors tried to cite what was in the Tanakh that they thought led to Jesus as being the Messiah, they had no choice but to take what was said and passed on and then try to mesh it with what was written in the Tanakh. That, of course, is a very imprecise art form, so undoubtedly much imagination had to be used to match the two up. Whether their links were correct or not is going to be questionable of course. But my guess is that they tried to do this in an honest manner.

Another thing I can defend them on is that interpretation is another imprecise art form.

I gotta cut this short-- got company.

 

[sojourner]

The Holy Bible is superior because in the Old Testament God teaches us how mankind failed over and over again to please the Creator-God with our living and lifestyles. In the New Testament He shows us the way of Salvation from hell-fire. No other book in the world has this information.

In the Hebrew texts, we are taught that God saves God's people. We are taught hospitality, righteousness, remnant theology, inclusion and lifting up of the disenfranchised. It has nothing to do with "how [hu]mankind failed over and over again to please the Creator-God with our living and lifestyles."
In the Greek texts, we are taught about grace, reconciliation and abundant living. It has little (if anything) to do with "saving us from hell-fire."

 

[sojourner]

It contains knowledge beyond human comprehension.Things only the creator could possibly know.There is no other book in the world that can tell you how you work.

I don't see how a human writing can possibly produce knowledge "beyond human comprehension."

 

[sojourner]

You missed it, for All Mankind, God doesn't discriminate. The Jews should be glad and take hold of what Isaiah wrote, doing away with the old and announcing a new covenant. A Christian I'm not or do I agree myself with any so called religions.

Boy, have you missed the target a mile! It's the difference between understanding what a "prophecy" and a "covenant" really are, and misapprehending them as merely "predicting the future" and "a paradigm for salvation."

 

[sojourner]

Wrong, it was written for all Mankind, Jews and Gentiles alike.

Wrong. Isaiah is for the Jews. If you're not a Xtian, and don't "agree with any so-called religions," what makes you think you're any kind of expert or authority on either Judaic or Xtian theology? You've certainly missed the mark thus far.

 

[sojourner]

No.Egypt did not exist until after Noah and his family were on earth.

Noah and his family never factually or historically existed. They are literary characters -- not historic figures.

 

[sojourner]

God did away with the Old and announces a New Covenant in Isaiah, what Man has ordained in these religion's is far from what he says we should do.
In Isaiah God teaches us what he expects from us so that he will be our God and he will have a People. To be his Servants, bring forth his Praise, help the needy and keep his Sabbaths.

God doesn't "do away" with covenants. Each covenant is a different paradigm, not particularly a supplanting paradigm. Both Judaism and Xy foster servanthood, praise, charitable works, and holy rest.

What do you do for a living, because you should probably stick to what you know.

 

[sojourner]

The reasons why God doesn't have a people and the people have no God. The delusions of the Trinity. Most important, the revealing of the Arm of the Lord.

God does have a people; people do have a God. The trinity is a valid theological construction.

All you've managed to do here is reveal the Armpit of the Lord.

 

[sojourner]

The has only ever been but 1 God, if you choose to call him a liar so be it. God has hidden his face from the Jews and invited the Gentiles to salvation. God annulled his covenant with the Jews and declared a new one for all people Jew or not. Isaiah was a True Prophet and not a word God spoke will be in vain, his will, will be done.

In what way has God "hidden [God's] face" from the Jews? What's your evidence for this?

 

[julio.2]

Correct me if I’m wrong. There is no room within Jewish theology to accommodate a god/man as told in the Christian orthodox interpretation of the canonical Gospels. If I’m right, then we have a little problem. Either the Christian orthodox is wrong or Jews do not know how to interpret their own scripture. If the Jews are wrong, it creates a sort of catch 22 problem, a problem that backs the most Christians into a corner with no means to escape. If Jews do not know how to interpret their own scripture, how can Christians trust the very concept of the Messiah? It is a Jewish idea. Maybe the Jews got that wrong too. Christian theology is based on Jewish ignorance of Jewish scripture. According to Christians, it takes a Gentile to explain Jewish scripture to Jews. Since Jews wrote the scripture itself, how can Gentiles trust any of it? It is absurd. Isn’t it possible the Gentiles didn’t interpret the Gospels correctly from the get go? Whoever wrote these Gospels were not your garden variety Jews. They were extremely well versed in scripture, educated and creative. They were written by Jews, for Jews, using Jewish theological ideas. The Gospels were never meant for Gentiles. The point I’m making is that the Gentiles never interpreted the Gospels correctly from the beginning. Much like existing scripture at the time, the Gospels use metaphors, symbolism and allegory to convey its message. The early Gentiles had read these books and interpreted them literal. I find it very peculiar that all the allegory ends with the Old Testament and the literalism begins with the New Testament.

We have all been deceived and led astray so many years ago. We only know what our teachers have convinced us is true. There were rich & powerful leaders of the Jewish Faith that didn't want a change. Not wanting for the people to know the truth and used Religion to control them and take their money. I don't know where the idea came up that the Jewish scripture was different from the scripture, that God only wants a relationship with the Jew. I surly don't understand why the Jew didn't take hold of the new covenant offered in Isaiah, they must have thought it wasn't for them. Don't you feel like there are so many religions that are so off based. It's obvious that God wants a People and one day will have them. In Isaiah God talks about hating rituals, burnt offering and does away with them announcing a new way. Seems to me that keeping his Sabbaths as described in Isaiah is so very dear to Gods heart. God gives Spirit to all those who walk the Earth. Jew and
Gentile alike. I see the Light mentioned as the light is on, come in any who see it.
*
I've read the New Testament, written by men for men. No prophesies have come true, if there's any in there. God warns us of False Prophets because he knew they would find their way into scripture. He warns us of False Teachers who are out for their own gain. Organized Religion is a business, they'll say what ever it takes to keep you paying. A relationship with God is so personal and is between that person and God. Having your conscience before God, judging your thoughts and actions according to his word. Blessed is he who keeps his mind on the Lord God.
I pray God that he helps both of us to understand more clearly. I've no formal training in Religion, I don't really understand any Religion. Certainly the Jewish Faith, Catholic Faith, Muslin Faith and like I wrote Christianity sure doesn't have it right.

 

[sojourner]

Not only have I been lifted off my bed by God when I was 14, when 30 the brightest light hit my Bible and I was with 3 Angels singing Praise to God.

Well... idn't that special?!

 

[sojourner]

We have all been deceived and led astray so many years ago. We only know what our teachers have convinced us is true. There were rich & powerful leaders of the Jewish Faith that didn't want a change. Not wanting for the people to know the truth and used Religion to control them and take their money. I don't know where the idea came up that the Jewish scripture was different from the scripture, that God only wants a relationship with the Jew. I surly don't understand why the Jew didn't take hold of the new covenant offered in Isaiah, they must have thought it wasn't for them. Don't you feel like there are so many religions that are so off based. It's obvious that God wants a People and one day will have them. In Isaiah God talks about hating rituals, burnt offering and does away with them announcing a new way. Seems to me that keeping his Sabbaths as described in Isaiah is so very dear to Gods heart. God gives Spirit to all those who walk the Earth. Jew and
Gentile alike. I see the Light mentioned as the light is on, come in any who see it.
*
I've read the New Testament, written by men for men. No prophesies have come true, if there's any in there. God warns us of False Prophets because he knew they would find their way into scripture. He warns us of False Teachers who are out for their own gain. Organized Religion is a business, they'll say what ever it takes to keep you paying. A relationship with God is so personal and is between that person and God. Having your conscience before God, judging your thoughts and actions according to his word. Blessed is he who keeps his mind on the Lord God.
I pray God that he helps both of us to understand more clearly. I've no formal training in Religion, I don't really understand any Religion. Certainly the Jewish Faith, Catholic Faith, Muslin Faith and like I wrote Christianity sure doesn't have it right.

Boy, do you have Xy pegged wrong -- and Judaism, I might add. Both are highly communal and relational. There simply was not the level of individualism present in ancient Near-East and Mediterranean thought as you ascribe. Therefore, reading such individualism into, especially, Hebraic texts is disingenuous.

 

[julio.2]

God does have a people; people do have a God. The trinity is a valid theological construction.

All you've managed to do here is reveal the Armpit of the Lord.

The trinity was constructed by men for men. No way is it or has it ever been valid, from the first commandment to the bitter end, One God with many sons and who gives Spirit to ALL those who walk the Earth.

 

[sojourner]

I'm new to this forum and have a little trouble finding my replies. I was troubled by the idea of the Trinity, my teachers doing their best to convince me. The brightest light hit my Bible and opened it to Isaiah 42, I was somewhere with 3 Angels playing instruments and singing Praise to God. God doesn't speak much in the Bible, we are warned about False Prophets and told how to discern them. Isaiah was a Prophet and I believe that what is written in Isaiah will come true. Some have and some are to come. I know we're taught Line upon line, precept upon precept. Keeping his Sabbaths has been a commandment since Moses and in Isaiah it's obvious that keeping it leads to being Saved by God. Jew or Gentile

You don't understand the nature of prophecy; it doesn't "come true" -- it simply is true.

 

[sojourner]

This is what God the Lord says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
8 “I am the Lord; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
*
KJV
I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

So... let me get this straight. You claim to not be a Christian, yet you use a patently Christian text to prove your points, and your replacement theology reads suspiciously close to fundamental Christianity. What's the dealio, Julio?

 

[sojourner]

The scriptures are twisted, line upon line, precept upon precept, a little here a little there.

Again, a "proof" from a patently Christian text. Furthermore, if the scriptures are, indeed, twisted, why do you rely on them to "prove" your points? Isn't that sort of like presenting a factual lie as evidence?

 

[sojourner]

The trinity was constructed by men for men. No way is it or has it ever been valid, from the first commandment to the bitter end, One God with many sons and who gives Spirit to ALL those who walk the Earth.

Of course. So is all theology. What's the problem? It has been valid for 1700 years, for it presents a way for us to think about God that is congruent with scripture and Tradition. If you fail to understand it, that's no reflection on the construction, but on your ability to understand.

 

[sojourner]

I wouldn’t put my trust in Christian commentaries if I were you. They have it backwards. They attempt to Christianize the Old Testament. When in fact they should Judaize the New Testament. By reading the Gospels as allegorical Jewish writings all the themes begin to fall in place. The Gospels are meant to be in agreement with the Torah, not argue with it.

That's an unfair assessment. It really depends on the commentary. The scholarly ones are fair and honest tools.

 

[sojourner]

The Way of Salvation by Almighty God's INITIATIVE is found SOLELY in the New Testament and nowhere else.
Here it is: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son [Jesus Christ], that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life [in heaven with Almighty God].
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world [of humanity] through him might be saved [from eternal Hell-fire].

Btw, all religions including the Roman Catholic religion teaches salvation from hell-fire through self-effort and sacrifice. It means you save yourself by your own efforts. Not so the Gospel [good news] of Jesus Christ.

Here it is:
Titus 3:5-7King James Version (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Can you see now that in the New Testament and even in the Old Testament it is Almighty God Who took/takes the INITIATIVE to save people because of His infinite Mercy.

All religions are looking for God, not so the Born Again Christian Faith. I was not looking for God before I was Born Again. Why? Because I was happy in my sinning under the influence/dictates of Satan who is named the "god" of this world in 2 Cor. 4:4.. I was doing what Adam and Eve did after they sinned. They ran away from their Creator-God. But what happened? The Creator-God came looking for them and then He provided the couple with His method of salvation of a blood sacrifice thru' which He provided coats of sheeps skin.

Yikes. Just... yikes!