I'm new to this forum and have a little trouble finding my replies. I was troubled by the idea of the Trinity, my teachers doing their best to convince me. The brightest light hit my Bible and opened it to Isaiah 42, I was somewhere with 3 Angels playing instruments and singing Praise to God. God doesn't speak much in the Bible, we are warned about False Prophets and told how to discern them. Isaiah was a Prophet and I believe that what is written in Isaiah will come true. Some have and some are to come. I know we're taught Line upon line, precept upon precept. Keeping his Sabbaths has been a commandment since Moses and in Isaiah it's obvious that keeping it leads to being Saved by God. Jew or Gentile
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One God, One Saviour the Creator
- Thread starter julio.2
- Start date
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
That really doesn't make even logical sense besides being anti what the scriptures actually say. If God supposedly took away the Covenant that He promised He would have with us "forever" as I showed you, then why would He give it to any group that doesn't follow most of the Law that He gave us to begin with?
So, what you are in essence saying is the God got angry with us for not following the Law closely enough, removing the Covenant, and then giving it to peoples who don't follow most of the Law. That makes sense how?
They aren't threats, God said it, I believe it. I also believe what's God says here to Jeremiah, " Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds". There is no Religion that follows the instructions given by God in Isaiah. I have no zeal to preach, I have Zeal to quote God. To convince people to turn to Isaiah and learn about God, for them to understand that there's only One God, One Saviour the Creator who will have a People again, that will do away with all evil.
McBell
Unbound
That's an awful lot of double talk in that there post....
God says it better than I can. Isaiah 42. A new Covenant for Jew or Gentile. God knew how they would think, that's why he warns about idols but they didn't listen and have tried to make a god and savior out of his Servant. What led me to Isaiah was, " I was troubled by the idea of the Trinity, my teachers doing their best to convince me. The brightest light hit my Bible and opened it to Isaiah 42, I was somewhere with 3 Angels playing instruments and singing Praise to God". This is my goal, to open their eyes, unplug their ears that they see the errors of their ways, for them to take hold of the Covenant offered, Jew and Gentile alike. To see God have a People and the People a God
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Here's all of Isaiah 42, so please show me whereas it says "gentile" (also notre what I underlined below, which clearly counters what you're saying):
Isa.42
[1]Behold my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen, in whom my soul delights;
I have put my Spirit upon him,
he will bring forth justice to the nations.
[2] He will not cry or lift up his voice,
or make it heard in the street;
[3] a bruised reed he will not break,
and a dimly burning wick he will not quench;
he will faithfully bring forth justice.
[4] He will not fail or be discouraged
till he has established justice in the earth;
and the coastlands wait for his law.
[5] Thus says God, the LORD,
who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread forth the earth and what comes from it,
who gives breath to the people upon it
and spirit to those who walk in it:
[6] "I am the LORD, I have called you in righteousness,
I have taken you by the hand and kept you;
I have given you as a covenant to the people,
a light to the nations,
[7] to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
from the prison those who sit in darkness.
[8] I am the LORD, that is my name;
my glory I give to no other,
nor my praise to graven images.
[9] Behold, the former things have come to pass,
and new things I now declare;
before they spring forth
I tell you of them."
[10] Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise from the end of the earth!
Let the sea roar and all that fills it,
the coastlands and their inhabitants.
[11] Let the desert and its cities lift up their voice,
the villages that Kedar inhabits;
let the inhabitants of Sela sing for joy,
let them shout from the top of the mountains.
[12] Let them give glory to the LORD,
and declare his praise in the coastlands.
[13] The LORD goes forth like a mighty man,
like a man of war he stirs up his fury;
he cries out, he shouts aloud,
he shows himself mighty against his foes.
[14] For a long time I have held my peace,
I have kept still and restrained myself;
now I will cry out like a woman in travail,
I will gasp and pant.
[15] I will lay waste mountains and hills,
and dry up all their herbage;
I will turn the rivers into islands,
and dry up the pools.
[16] And I will lead the blind
in a way that they know not,
in paths that they have not known
I will guide them.
I will turn the darkness before them into light,
the rough places into level ground.
These are the things I will do,
and I will not forsake them.
[17] They shall be turned back and utterly put to shame,
who trust in graven images,
who say to molten images,
"You are our gods."
[18] Hear, you deaf;
and look, you blind, that you may see!
[19] Who is blind but my servant,
or deaf as my messenger whom I send?
Who is blind as my dedicated one,
or blind as the servant of the LORD?
[20] He sees many things, but does not observe them;
his ears are open, but he does not hear.
[21] The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness' sake,
to magnify his law and make it glorious.
[22] But this is a people robbed and plundered,
they are all of them trapped in holes
and hidden in prisons;
they have become a prey with none to rescue,
a spoil with none to say, "Restore!"
[23] Who among you will give ear to this,
will attend and listen for the time to come?
[24] Who gave up Jacob to the spoiler,
and Israel to the robbers?
Was it not the LORD, against whom we have sinned,
in whose ways they would not walk,
and whose law they would not obey?
[25] So he poured upon him the heat of his anger
and the might of battle;
it set him on fire round about, but he did not understand;
it burned him, but he did not take it to heart.
averageJOE
zombie
Interesting. The Egyptians seemed to be thriving before, during, and after that era with no break in their history.
Egypt: Timeline of History & Culture
[Timeline] Egypt. - David Rumsey Historical Map Collection
Menu
This is what God the Lord says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
8 “I am the Lord; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
*
KJV
I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
8 “I am the Lord; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
*
KJV
I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Except the author put in the present tense and Jesus wasn't to come around for hundreds of years. No matter how you try and twist it, your interpretation doesn't make any sense. Even "Jerome's Bible Commentary", which is a Christian (Catholic) source, states that it is not a reference to Jesus.
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.I believe God is speaking of Jesus. Jesus said others would come behind him and do wonders as he did. I believe another will come.
Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's "a light unto the gentiles", which is repeated at various intervals in the Tanakh, and it's quite clear that the Covenant is not meant to be contained for just us Jews but is to be shared with the gentile nations as well. And it has since both Christianity and Islam eventually emerged with the belief in one God, and also influenced other peoples as well.
Anyhow, you can believe whatever you want to believe, but please stop trying to twist the scriptures so they read what you want them to say.
Shalom, and take care.
Isaiah gives instruction to be Servant to God, God Created a new thing, he told us he did. God knew the followers would make a god of him. Another Servant is to come. Isa. 44:26 "That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof". A New Jerusalem.
*
I believe in the New Heaven and New Earth Isa. 65:17
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Isa. 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon? A Servant to come.
Isa.53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
Isa, 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
*
I ask God, how long will you hold your peace. One needs to come to put the Will of God into motion, that every knee shall bow.
*
Isa. 42:14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.
The scriptures are twisted, line upon line, precept upon precept, a little here a little there.
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That is not accurate according to the holy scriptures.
averageJOE
zombie
Which shows that your holy scriptures are wrong on the subject.
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Egyptian LifeandCulture. Scholars have long presented Egypt as the ‘most ancient civilization’ and as the source of many of mankind’s earliest inventions and progress. More recently, however, the accumulated evidence has pointed to Mesopotamia as the so-called cradle of civilization. Certain Egyptian architectural methods, the use of the wheel, perhaps the basic principles of their pictographic writing, and particularly the fundamental features of Egyptian religion are all thought to have had a Mesopotamian origin. This, of course, is in accord with the Bible record of the dispersion of peoples following the Flood.
Egypt, Egyptian — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
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Bible Chronology and Secular History. Concern is often expressed over the need to try to “harmonize” or “reconcile” the Biblical account with the chronology found in ancient secular records. Since truth is that which conforms to fact or reality, such coordinating would indeed be vital—if the ancient secular records could be demonstrated to be unequivocally exact and consistently reliable, hence a standard of accuracy by which to judge. Since the Biblical chronology has so often been represented by critics as inferior to that of the pagan nations, it is worth while to examine some of the ancient records of nations and peoples whose activities and life touch on and connect with the people and events recorded in the Bible.
The Bible is a historical book, preeminently so among ancient writings. The histories of the ancient Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Medes, Persians, and others are, in the main, fragmentary; their earlier periods are either obscure or, as presented by them, obviously mythical. Thus, the ancient document known as The Sumerian King List begins: “When kingship was lowered from heaven, kingship was (first) in Eridu. (In) Eridu, A-lulim (became) king and ruled 28,800 years. Alalgar ruled 36,000 years. Two kings (thus) ruled it for 64,800 years. . . . (In) Bad-tibira, En-men-lu-Anna ruled 43,200 years; En-men-gal-Anna ruled 28,800 years; the god Dumu-zi, a shepherd, ruled 36,000 years. Three kings (thus) ruled it for 108,000 years.”—Ancient Near EasternTexts, edited by J. B. Pritchard, 1974, p. 265.
What is known from secular sources of these ancient nations has been laboriously pieced together from bits of information obtained from monuments and tablets or from the later writings of the so-called classical historiographers of the Greek and Roman period. While archaeologists have recovered tens of thousands of clay tablets bearing Assyro-Babylonian cuneiform inscriptions, as well as large numbers of papyrus scrolls from Egypt, the vast majority of these are religious texts or business documents consisting of contracts, bills of sale, deeds, and similar matter. The considerably smaller number of historical writings of the pagan nations, preserved either in the form of tablets, cylinders, steles, or monumental inscriptions, consist chiefly of material glorifying their emperors and recounting their military campaigns in grandiose terms.
The Bible, by contrast, gives an unusually coherent and detailed history stretching through some 4,000 years, for not only does it record events with remarkable continuity from man’s beginning down to the time of Nehemiah’s governorship in the fifth century B.C.E. but also it may be considered as providing a basic coverage of the period between Nehemiah and the time of Jesus and his apostles by means of Daniel’s prophecy (history written in advance) at Daniel chapter 11. The Bible presents a graphic and true-to-life account of the nation of Israel from its birth onward, portraying with candor its strength and its weaknesses, its successes and its failures, its right worship and its false worship, its blessings and its adverse judgments and calamities. While this honesty alone does not ensure accurate chronology, it does give sound basis for confidence in the integrity of the Biblical writers and their sincere concern for recording truth.
Detailed records were manifestly available to Bible chroniclers, such as the writers of First and Second Kings and of First and Second Chronicles. This is seen by the lengthy genealogies they were able to compile, amounting to many hundreds of names; also the connected and factual presentation of the reigns of each of the kings of Judah and Israel, including their relations with other nations and with one another. Modern historians still express uncertainty as to the correct positioning of certain Assyrian and Babylonian kings, even some in the later dynasties. But there is no such uncertainty regarding the sequence of the kings of Judah and Israel.
There are references to “the book of the Wars of Jehovah” (Nu 21:14, 15), “the book of the affairs of the days of the kings of Israel” (1Ki 14:19; 2Ki 15:31), “the book of the affairs of the days of the kings of Judah” (1Ki 15:23; 2Ki 24:5), “the book of the affairs of Solomon” (1Ki 11:41), as well as the numerous references to similar annals or official records cited by Ezra and Nehemiah. These show that the information set down was not based upon mere remembrance or oral tradition but was carefully researched and fully documented. Governmental records of other nations are also cited by the Biblical historians, even as some portions of the Bible were written in lands outside of Israel, including Egypt, Babylon, and Persia.—See BOOK; ESTHER, BOOK OF; EZRA, BOOK OF.
Chronology — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
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Bible Chronology and Secular History continued
A factor that doubtless contributed toward an accurate count of the passage of years, at least to the extent that the Israelites faithfully kept the Mosaic Law, was their observance of sabbatical years and Jubilee years, thereby dividing the time up into 7-year and 50-year periods.—Le 25:2-5, 8-16, 25-31.
Particularly distinguishing the Biblical record from the contemporaneous writings of the pagan nations is the sense of time, not only of the past and the present but also of the future, that runs through its pages. (Da 2:28; 7:22; 8:18, 19; Mr 1:15; Re 22:10) The unique prophetic element made chronological accuracy a matter of far greater importance to the Israelites than to any of the pagan nations because the prophecies often involved specific time periods. As God’s Book, the Bible stresses his punctuality in carrying out his word (Eze 12:27, 28; Ga 4:4) and shows that accurate prophecies were proof of his Godship.—Isa 41:21-26; 48:3-7.
True, some of the non-Biblical documents are several centuries older than the oldest manuscript copies of the Bible thus far discovered. Engraved in stone or inscribed in clay, some ancient pagan documents may seem very impressive, but this does not ensure their correctness and their freedom from falsehood. Not the material written on, but the writer, his purpose, his respect for truth, his devotion to righteous principles—these are the important factors that give sound basis for confidence, in chronological as well as other matters. The great age of the secular documents is certainly outweighed by the vastly inferior quality of their contents when compared with the Bible. Because the Bible records were evidently made on perishable materials, such as papyrus and vellum, their continued use and the deteriorating effect of weather conditions in much of Israel (different from the extraordinarily dry climate of Egypt) may well explain the absence of extant original copies today. Yet, because it is Jehovah’s inspired Book, the Bible has been carefully copied and preserved in full form until today. (1Pe 1:24, 25) Divine inspiration, by which the Bible historians were able to set down their records, assures the reliability of Bible chronology.—2Pe 1:19-21.
Well illustrating why secular histories do not qualify as the standard of accuracy by which to judge Bible chronology is this statement by archaeological writer C. W. Ceram, commenting on the modern science of historical dating: “Anyone approaching the study of ancient history for the first time must be impressed by the positive way modern historians date events which took place thousands of years ago. In the course of further study this wonder will, if anything, increase. For as we examine the sources of ancient history we see how scanty, inaccurate, or downright false, the records were even at the time they were first written. And poor as they originally were, they are poorer still as they have come down to us: half destroyed by the tooth of time or by the carelessness and rough usage of men.” He further describes the framework of chronological history as “a purely hypothetical structure, and one which threatens to come apart at every joint.”—The Secret of the Hittites, 1956, pp. 133, 134.
This evaluation may seem extreme, but as regards the secular records, it is not without basis. The information that follows will make clear why there is no reason to feel doubt about the accuracy of the Biblical chronology simply because certain secular records are at variance with it. On the contrary, it is only when the secular chronology harmonizes with the Biblical record that a person may rightly feel a measure of confidence in such ancient secular dating. When considering the records of these pagan nations that had relations with the nation of Israel, it should be kept in mind that some of the apparent discrepancies in their records may simply be due to the inability of modern historians to interpret correctly the methods anciently used, similar to their inability to interpret correctly the methods used by the Biblical historians. There is, however, considerable evidence of definite carelessness and inaccuracy or even of deliberate falsification on the part of the pagan historians and chronologers.
Chronology — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
A factor that doubtless contributed toward an accurate count of the passage of years, at least to the extent that the Israelites faithfully kept the Mosaic Law, was their observance of sabbatical years and Jubilee years, thereby dividing the time up into 7-year and 50-year periods.—Le 25:2-5, 8-16, 25-31.
Particularly distinguishing the Biblical record from the contemporaneous writings of the pagan nations is the sense of time, not only of the past and the present but also of the future, that runs through its pages. (Da 2:28; 7:22; 8:18, 19; Mr 1:15; Re 22:10) The unique prophetic element made chronological accuracy a matter of far greater importance to the Israelites than to any of the pagan nations because the prophecies often involved specific time periods. As God’s Book, the Bible stresses his punctuality in carrying out his word (Eze 12:27, 28; Ga 4:4) and shows that accurate prophecies were proof of his Godship.—Isa 41:21-26; 48:3-7.
True, some of the non-Biblical documents are several centuries older than the oldest manuscript copies of the Bible thus far discovered. Engraved in stone or inscribed in clay, some ancient pagan documents may seem very impressive, but this does not ensure their correctness and their freedom from falsehood. Not the material written on, but the writer, his purpose, his respect for truth, his devotion to righteous principles—these are the important factors that give sound basis for confidence, in chronological as well as other matters. The great age of the secular documents is certainly outweighed by the vastly inferior quality of their contents when compared with the Bible. Because the Bible records were evidently made on perishable materials, such as papyrus and vellum, their continued use and the deteriorating effect of weather conditions in much of Israel (different from the extraordinarily dry climate of Egypt) may well explain the absence of extant original copies today. Yet, because it is Jehovah’s inspired Book, the Bible has been carefully copied and preserved in full form until today. (1Pe 1:24, 25) Divine inspiration, by which the Bible historians were able to set down their records, assures the reliability of Bible chronology.—2Pe 1:19-21.
Well illustrating why secular histories do not qualify as the standard of accuracy by which to judge Bible chronology is this statement by archaeological writer C. W. Ceram, commenting on the modern science of historical dating: “Anyone approaching the study of ancient history for the first time must be impressed by the positive way modern historians date events which took place thousands of years ago. In the course of further study this wonder will, if anything, increase. For as we examine the sources of ancient history we see how scanty, inaccurate, or downright false, the records were even at the time they were first written. And poor as they originally were, they are poorer still as they have come down to us: half destroyed by the tooth of time or by the carelessness and rough usage of men.” He further describes the framework of chronological history as “a purely hypothetical structure, and one which threatens to come apart at every joint.”—The Secret of the Hittites, 1956, pp. 133, 134.
This evaluation may seem extreme, but as regards the secular records, it is not without basis. The information that follows will make clear why there is no reason to feel doubt about the accuracy of the Biblical chronology simply because certain secular records are at variance with it. On the contrary, it is only when the secular chronology harmonizes with the Biblical record that a person may rightly feel a measure of confidence in such ancient secular dating. When considering the records of these pagan nations that had relations with the nation of Israel, it should be kept in mind that some of the apparent discrepancies in their records may simply be due to the inability of modern historians to interpret correctly the methods anciently used, similar to their inability to interpret correctly the methods used by the Biblical historians. There is, however, considerable evidence of definite carelessness and inaccuracy or even of deliberate falsification on the part of the pagan historians and chronologers.
Chronology — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY