One God or many gods

[Sargonski]

Yes, Satan is a 'god' the 'god' of this world of badness according to 2nd Corinthians 4:4
Satan is the ruler of this world - John 14:30; Ephesians 2:2; 1st John 5:19
Remember 'god/ God' is a title and Not a proper name for the God of the Bible YHWH.
Since Satan came from the divine heavens then in that sense he is divine but Not in holiness.
Sinner Satan will be destroyed by Jesus - Hebrews 2:14 B

Please refrain from quoting Paul .. in relation to anything of the spirit .. as Paul was not of the spirit .. Paul is not "The Logos" .. who spoke Gods word through the Holy Spirit .. so let us not usurp the position of Jesus .. substituting the words of Paul . nor is the Devil of Paul the same as our friend .. the Tester of souls from Job .. "The Adversary" of Job .. and as you correctly point out .. indeed this is the title of this "Son of God"

and yes .. we are told Ha Satan is a God -- and quite a powerful God at that ...showing off all kinds of Godly powers in Job. and here you go completely off the rails talking about Ha Satan being destroyed by Jesus.

Jesus never say anything about destroying Ha Satan .. the God who put Jesus through his Paces during the ritual Trial .. At the behest of the almighty however, it must be said. Who did you think gave the tester of souls his Job title ? who allowed him to be Chief God over all the earth.

You need to stop heeding the words not of the spirit --- Ha Satan is not against God in Job ... he is shown as specifically subordinat to his Father . not acting outside of the will of his by his Father.

So yes ... Ha Satan is a God .. but this demonic God of Paul you are talking about is not the Ha Satan of Job --- Just as the God "Jealous" is not the God of Jesus.

Let us hearken not to the hands of man .. written into the Bible - for these are the hands of the decepticon.. When Jesus says to Peter - Get behind me Satan .. he is referring to the adversary of Job.. and his tester. .. Telling Peter .. I have already been through the tester of souls testing me . don't need that from you .. "Thats behind me already" heh heh .. so funny how folks get to mixed up over a simple passage .. well .. simple once one knows the Bible from the perspective of those that wrote the story - as opposed to the perspective of some Trinitarian in the 21st century.

 

[Sargonski]

That is pure nonsense.
The history of Palestine/Israel is diverse, for sure, but includes monotheism .. until this day.

who said anything about Israel/Palestine in modern times ? no wonder you can't make sense of up or down .. these made up stories in your head blocking what was said.

The Israelites were not monotheists .. and they ceased to exist in the 8th century BC .. when Israel was destroyed by Assyria.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Israelites were not monotheists .. and they ceased to exist in the 8th century BC .. when Israel was destroyed by Assyria..

That is a common fallacy.
You read something in a history book, and it suits you to believe it's accurate.

It's a lot more complicated than that .. but I know you're not interested .. you prefer the "western version" of history, and that's that.

 

[Sargonski]

That is a common fallacy.
You read something in a history book, and it suits you to believe it's accurate.

It's a lot more complicated than that .. but I know you're not interested .. you prefer the "western version" of history, and that's that.

Nothing fallacious about it.. The Israelites were not monotheists .. thats what the Bible tells us .. what history tells us .. what archaeology tells us .. and running around crying "Fallacy .. not accurate .. more complicated but you ar not interested" -- is not much of an argument for anything and certainly does not change world history ..

"Western History" .. that is a funny bunny That we find temples of YHWH - with idols of both YHWH and his consort Asherah - just like the Bible tells us - is not "Western History" friend. Monotheism did not come to the remnents of the tribes of Judah and Benhamin until after YHWH was killed .. and the annointed one of the God ofd Cyrus came to the rescue.. that monotheism came into Jewish Religious belief.

 

[muhammad_isa]

"Western History" .. that is a funny bunny

Not at all.
It depends a lot in what language you read your history, as to how events are narrated.
When I say "western history", I mean those books by western authors .. we all have an agenda
that is based on our beliefs. Historians are no different.

That we find temples of YHWH - with idols of both YHWH and his consort Asherah - just like the Bible tells us - is not "Western History" friend.

..but it's all about how you interpret said events.
From the view of a disbeliever, it appears to show that people believed in different gods, and
their root is polytheistic.

From the view of a believer, it can be seen as the majority REVERTING to polytheism through
illiteracy. Hence we see the people of old worshipping El, Jehovah etc. as idols.
That does not prove anything one way or another .. it's just that you read books from disbelieving authors.

 

[Sargonski]

Not at all.
It depends a lot in what language you read your history, as to how events are narrated.
When I say "western history", I mean those books by western authors .. we all have an agenda
that is based on our beliefs. Historians are no different.


..but it's all about how you interpret said events.
From the view of a disbeliever, it appears to show that people believed in different gods, and
their root is polytheistic.

From the view of a believer, it can be seen as the majority REVERTING to polytheism through
illiteracy. Hence we see the people of old worshipping El, Jehovah etc. as idols.
That does not prove anything one way or another .. it's just that you read books from disbelieving authors.

This has nothing to do with my interpretation .. nor "western History" books - nor is there any disagreement among global theologians .. bible scholars ... archaeologists .. Biblical archaeology .. historians of any stripe.

The Israelites were polytheists .. and the few that decided that one God was the only one they would worship ( few and far between but they did show up from time to time) .. were not Monotheists .. they were monolatoralists .. meaning they believed in the existence of many Gods .. but chose to worship only one. Abraham for example --- still believed in the Pantheon .. just chose to worship only one.

This is later demanded by the Gods that come Later .. during the time of the Israelites one of their Gods named Jealous .. darn God is named after being Jealous of these other Gods .. gives a whole new set of commands .. but what's in a name "Jealous" ... let you figure out how to interpret that one. what doesn't change . and needs no interpretation .. is that this God is Jealous of other Gods .. this jealously reflects in the commands of this God .. Go read Exodus 34 for yourself ... and tell me how many of the first 10 commands .. are missing from the second 10 Commands...

and ya see Muhammud - understanding that the folks and events being described from a polygamist or monolateralist perspective .. is the Key to understanding .. and the proper interpretation.

Don't you know Ha Satan is a God ? .. Say so in Job .. how you gonna interpret that .. .without believing in the existence of other Gods .. or rather .. that the folks writing the story .. and everyone reading the story at the time .. believed in the existence of many Gods .. even if they only worshiped one .. which the Bible tells us is pretty much never.

how about you pur your money where mouth is --- find me one time in the entire history of the Israelites = from Moses to 720BC when Assyria takes over .. when the Israelites are worshiping ony one God ? sans the few monolateralist prophets that crop up from time to time ..

The people of Israel in General -- find a tie period where they be mono-lateralist .. never mind Monotheist .. which is on one never that we know of.

Where you finding info to the contrary ? .. cause it is not in the Bible .. any history books .. not from any theological school . archaeology.

Support your claim --- show us the Monotheism .. or even Monolateralism .. let you off easy and set the bar there ... a time when Israel is not Raging Polytheists.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Canaan was for God's people. The Canaanites would either have to give up non-Israelite ways or not be there.
Child sacrifice was Not an Israelite practice from God - Jeremiah 32:35 B; 2nd Chronicles 28:3; Ezekiel 23:37
According to Josephus ( Jewish Antiquities XIII, 257-258, XV 253-254 ) Hyrcanus I subjected the Edomites (Esau's people) around 130-120 BCE and following the destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70 ' by the Roman armies ' they (Esau's people) ceased to exist as a people.
Seems as if in King Uzziah's rule the prophets Joel and Amos announced condemnation for the Edomites because of their unrelenting fury against Israel - see Amos 1:6, 11-12; Amos 9:11-12; Joel 3:19; Isaiah 34:5-10

History is written by the Victor's. Abraham took his son for sacrifice. The Canaanites cannot be condemned for the same practice. It was pure politics.
Jews entered Edomite land. Fury was natural and justified.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Later polemicists - redactors .. and Chroniclers do not approve of the Practice of child Sacrifice .. writing during the Persian period ... when such things were frowned upon..

During King Solomon's day .. and prior .. YHWH was quite OK with the practice .. sometimes requiring it .. to win a tough battle against one of the other Gods .. Poor Jepthahs daughter had to pass through the fire .. as per the direction of the "Spirit of Lord YHWH"

Ezekiel 20 "their eyes lusted after their parents’ idols. 25 So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live; 26 I defiled them through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.’

That is YHWH speaking -- ordering the sacrifice of children . in the passage .. but this is Ezekiel speaking during the Babylonian captivity .. lamenting over the downfall of Israel and now Judah .. blaming the downfall on Idol worship in particular but mentioning also that child sacrifice was happening .. saying that while God disfavored the practice .. he ordered it anyway to punish Israel for their Idolatries.

Regardless -- the Phonecians were not the only Canaanites sacrificing children from time to time .. The Israelites were doing it .. as were others.

If you want to the Temple of YHWH in Israel ~ 900 BC .. what would you find ? .. exactly what the Bible tells us. There would be Two Standing STones .. one for YHWH and the other his consort and Queen of Heaven Asherah. not in the Bible but from archaeology .. they would burn cannabis oil on the Asherah stone. then at some point you would have to choose .. do you have sex with the female temple prostitutes .. the worship of Asherah .. or do you have sex with the male temple prostitutes .. the worshp of YHWH ..

Later you might wish to take in the sights at the "High Place" out back .. thats where the sacrifices happen and if you are really lucky .. and the war is not going well .. drastic measures need be taken .. perhaps witness a baby or two roasting on the fire.

Listen not to a monotheist talking about how bad things were .. as if this is the desire of YHWH. There were no monotheists in Israel .. ever .. during its entire existence .. Let that sink in .. and from Abe to the Israelites as well .. nary a single monotheist .

You are right. Then why condemn and take over Canaanite land?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

That is pure nonsense.
The history of Palestine/Israel is diverse, for sure, but includes monotheism .. until this day.

Including monotheists is fine. But why attack edomites and Canaanites? Why take their land?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

This is nonsensical; they are all Gods, there's no one 'God' they are connected to in these myths.

I am not into name calling. I unDerstand the gods to be personification of our collective conscious. So there are levels. gods don't emanate from God.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Does this extend out beyond this group into the celtic and germanic groups?

Honestly don't know. It doess not appear relevant for this discussion .

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

"He was missing an eye because he sacrificed it in order to gain divine wisdom from the god Mímir. " quote from some website I just googled...

Seems to be quite different than losing it in a fight with someone else...

Indeed there is no one eyed god in hinduism. But the Osiris Horus story is parallel to indra killing vritra.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Christianity has only one Archangel, and that Archangel is God's Son Jesus as per 1st Thessalonians 4:16

But many angels. Which is archangel is matter of perspective which I honor.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Lol.

This not really true at all.

Many Gods and Goddesses could be added to pantheons, true, but to suggest the Gods get along is nonsensical when you look at the various bipartisan pantheons such as the AEsir vs Vanir, the Titans vs Olympians and the Ahuras vs the Daevas etc.

The gods are collective consciousness of groups. Some align with God. Others do not. They are evil gods.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Very true. The biblical god certainly seems to be somewhat anti-social.

The gods are collective consciousness of groups. Some align with God. Others do not. They are evil gods.

 

[River Sea]

Indeed there is no one eyed god in hinduism. But the Osiris Horus story is parallel to indra killing vritra.

Indra kills Vritra.
Cain kills Abel
Set kills Osiris, but Horus does not kill anyone.
So if Set killed Osiris, that's then parallel.
How would Horus be paralleled in this story?

 

[Bear Wild]

Honestly don't know. It doess not appear relevant for this discussion .

Why isn't it relevant to this discussion? They are certainty equal to any discussed here and the title is one god or many gods so yes they are relevant. They share a deep relationality to the gods of the Hindu, Greek, and Egyptian gods and goddesses.

 

[Superman7]

To people on RF who believe in many gods, why do you believe that and not in only one god?

To people on RF who believe in one god, why do you believe that and not in

Holy Spirit (Hebrew: רוח הקודש, ruach ha-kodesh)

The Holy Spirit feeds me fire; the Holy Spirit lives in me and is my friend; I have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit. I allow the Holy Spirit to teach me

YHWH, Allah, and Brahman are the same God; there is only one God.

Listen.. Gotta separate the biblical from the Harry Potter okay..

 

[Superman7]

Listen.. Gotta separate the biblical from the Harry Potter okay..

I apaologize.. The Holy Spirit. How do you get it?

 

[Sargonski]

You are right. Then why condemn and take over Canaanite land?

Hmmm .. cause they are Canaanites The Israelites were Canaanite nomadic Tribes in the high-lands -- who were in the right place at the right time during the Bronze Age Collapse. Now while such conditions were not requried for people of the Stepps to take over the cities in the fertile crescent .. Kassites ruled Babylon for centuries .. the bronze age collapse wiped out all the competition .. Egypt barely survives .. Assyria and Babylon not coming knocking .. Hittite empire disappears .. Greece goes from city state to rural. its anarchy .. Sea Peoples and Nomads rule the day .. and the land for 3-4 centuries. Collapse Starts aroun 1200 BC .. David takes Jerusalem 1000 BC Assyrians finally show up take over in 720 BC.