Only the 'saved' will get into heaven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[loverofhumanity]

The more extreme Christians who espouse the unpleasant, you must be 'saved' dogma, believe that if you ask the long dead Jesus to come into you heart you will get into heaven, and everyone else, however good or decent, will end up in the fires of hell. So in theory someone as evil as Hitler could make a deathbed conversion and go to heaven. Whereas a person who has spent there life helping others, but is not 'saved', will go to hell. CRAZY OR WHAT? A god who insists on that is a complete psychopath.

I Think in a literal sense of course it’s misleading. But if we use the definition ‘spiritual enlightenment’ in place of saved and heaven it makes sense that one cannot attain spiritual enlightenment except through following the teachings of the Manifestations of God.

I think it’s the same in all religions. You ask a Buddhist. You cannot achieve enlightenment without following the instructions of Buddha. And with Krishna it’s called God Consciousness. With Baha’is it’s called a station of Certitude. These are all descriptions of the attainment of spiritual maturity or the highest level of spirituality attainable and it cannot be attained except by following the instructions and guidance of the Spiritual Masters such as Buddha, Christ and others.

I think the over simplification of the term heaven by those on both sides who interpret it as literal misses the real crux of the matter that to attain spiritual enlightenment one needs the guidance of a true Spiritual Master such as Krishna, Buddha, Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

Otherwise it’s literal interpretation is mere superstition.

 

[LightofTruth]

To tell somone their physical body will return from death is just as big of a lie

The resurrection of the dead to eternal life is the hope of the Christian. A false hope tells someone they have an immortal immaterial soul that goes immediately to heaven.

The Scripture teaches a resurrection of the dead, the sectarians teach immaterial souls going to heaven.

 

[LightofTruth]

I hope all people would know that according to the Bible, it goes like this:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Eternal punishment is found in the judgment or condemnation of Adams sin. Since we all die the death that Adam brought into the world, that death sentence is eternal. In other words, the punishment for sin is eternal death. To return to dust and never be heard from again.

God is a God of covenant. To enter into covenant with God is to enter into a covenant for the resurrection of the dead. So, there are only two classes who will be raised from the dead. And they include only those who have entered covenant with God for resurrection. Those two classes consist of the faithful and wicked.The tares and the wheat, and they grow together. Anyone who is a stranger of the covenants of promise is without God and without hope.

 

[JJ50]

Eternal punishment is found in the judgment or condemnation of Adams sin. Since we all die the death that Adam brought into the world, that death sentence is eternal. In other words, the punishment for sin is eternal death. To return to dust and never be heard from again.

God is a God of covenant. To enter into covenant with God is to enter into a covenant for the resurrection of the dead. So, there are only two classes who will be raised from the dead. And they include only those who have entered covenant with God for resurrection. Those two classes consist of the faithful and wicked.The tares and the wheat, and they grow together. Anyone who is a stranger of the covenants of promise is without God and without hope.

It is sad you can't see how sick that belief is?

 

[LightofTruth]

It is sad you can't see how sick that belief is?

Would it be just as "sick" to say that eternal life is found only through Jesus Christ?

 

[Aupmanyav]

We were given freewill. Shame some of us used that gift to conjure up the idea of hell, to keep the flock in check and a heaven as a reward for doing what religion coerces.

Why were we given free will? That created all the problems.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Someone selling snake-oil.

I disagree. A God who demands His legitimate claims to the faith and obedience of His creatures is simply being just.

He is unjust for not creating the beings like he wanted. Poor engineering.

 

[JJ50]

Would it be just as "sick" to say that eternal life is found only through Jesus Christ?

Of course it would. Jesus was a mere mortal like the rest of us and far from perfect, that much is clear from the gospels. I have no interest in eternal life, I hope I cease to be when I kick the bucket.

 

[Lionel Refson]

Why were we given free will? That created all the problems.
.

we were given free-will and self-awareness because that is what we chose.
This is my take on the Adam and Eve story (written for a different audience

God made man and woman and wished to give them freewill i.e. the right and ability to make choices, otherwise they would have been as slaves. You can’t descend from heaven and just give your people free-will, their awe of you will make them instant slaves. God wanted to give Adam and Eve freewill, wanted them to be free. He warned them not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, on pain of death BUT being perfect as we have already posited, God surely knew they would disobey.. God had sent one of His creations to offer the other choice to Eve i.e. to have knowledge of good and evil and all that entailed, and the serpent made it an enticing choice, to know what is good and what is not.

Eve made her choice and the exit from the garden was not a punishment, it was our choice. We chose to be free of the simple life and instead chose a much more arduous and yet more fulfilling path than just tending animals in the Garden. We were not tricked. We obtained what we wanted and still do, we obtained knowledge and self-awareness. i.e. before the decision was made Adam and Eve like animals, had no knowledge of themselves, no ability to see themselves. Like animals they were unable to stand outside themselves and view themselves objectively. We humans have been given that gift. No person is able to give another interpretation in keeping with the idea of God as perfection. God didn’t tempt Adam and Eve. For what purpose would he do that if God already knew, being so all-seeing that they would disobey? Utter illogical nonsense!

Yet that is what we have been taught for centuries. Why would we assume that God is either flawed or not so powerful? There is only one vaguely relevant counter –argument to the logic and it goes like this “The Lord works in mysterious ways” That is a very weak and useless argument. Another question one could ask is Why God, who could have created perfection did not make us perfect. The answer is simple. In the garden of Eden, we had perfection, no worries, fear, stress, dangers and so on but we chose freewill and self-awareness. We chose the world we now live in. We have freewill and that means we are not beholden nor ruled by a higher power. We have self-awareness which means we are aware of ourselves and the world around us. Unlike an animal which is set on a simple system of surviving i.e. by eating, sleeping defecating and procreating, we humans, should have no the fear of being controlled and because of self-awareness we have higher minds and more complex thought processes.

Our understanding of ourselves and our species grows ever deeper; because we have the capacity to study it. Freewill and self-awareness are two gifts from our Creator to us and religion has stolen these from us, telling us how to worship, and how to think of God.

 

[Road Warrior]

The more extreme Christians who espouse the unpleasant, you must be 'saved' dogma, believe that if you ask the long dead Jesus to come into you heart you will get into heaven, and everyone else, however good or decent, will end up in the fires of hell. So in theory someone as evil as Hitler could make a deathbed conversion and go to heaven. Whereas a person who has spent there life helping others, but is not 'saved', will go to hell. CRAZY OR WHAT? A god who insists on that is a complete psychopath.

Which is why it's highly unlikely the "extreme Christians" are correct on the entrance requirements.

 

[Windwalker]

"Physiologically traumatized" or "child abuse" are hardly terms I would use to describe Christian indoctrination.

I wouldn't call indoctrination child abuse either. I'm not that naive. We all program our children into our belief systems, theist and atheist alike. But when that indoctrination leads you to isolation and fear, that is not a healthy indoctrination for the child's mind and emotions. And that can be considered a form of child abuse. Yes.

These are terms reserved for war veterans and children that have been raised being told they're stupid and worthless, raped, or beaten and the like.

Telling a child that they have a devil inside of them, that they are evil, that they will be sent to hell if they fail God, such things traumatize children. Telling them that all their friends are going to fry in hell if they don't become Christians, is also a traumatic thing for a young mind to process, especially when that comes from an authority figure in their lives like a parent.

I was raised with such indoctrination, and yes, when I was breaking free from it I had concerns about burning in hell (my family to this very day will tell me I am), but please, we're suggesting religious PTSD here.

Your experience with your parents is not identical to everyone else's in their homes. Have you never listened to the testimonies of former fundamentalist Christians? There is a site I could link you to that has a section dedicated to just those. It most definitely has a deep level impact in these people's lives, some who never heal from it and remain bitter "angry atheists" the rest of their lives because of it.

I too am not sure I'd call all of it PTSD, per se, but it doesn't have to be that one particular symptom to be considered a traumatic, negative experience. It's garbage that screws with young minds. Think Westboro Baptist stuff here.

But my point was and is that judging others for what the believe affects the judge more than the people they're judging.

As I said, I believe ultimately this is true. It's something I personally monitor in myself, because to curse another ultimately is you only cursing yourself. However, as part of the healing process, recovering from these experiences, will find people being quite angry. That anger in that context, is in fact, healing. Getting angry is a stage of recovery.

Do you believe there are no negative effects at all from this, which people need to process in their lives in order to heal from them? Some even through professional counseling? Is this what you are suggesting?

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. it makes sense that one cannot attain spiritual enlightenment except through following the teachings of the Manifestations of God.

And with Krishna it’s called God Consciousness.

.. to attain spiritual enlightenment one needs the guidance of a true Spiritual Master such as Krishna, Buddha, Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

Yeah, that suits you (because you have a manfiestation to sell).

Krishna described many ways to enlightenment, not just servitude of God (Bhakti). The problem is that you have not read Gita. There are many such verses in Gita, allow me to post just one for your information:

"Jñeyaḥ sa nitya-sannyāsī, yo na dveṣṭi na kāṅkṣati; nirdvandvo hi mahā-bāho, sukhaṁ bandhāt pramucyate."

Meanings: jñeyaḥ - should be known; saḥ - he; nitya - always; sannyāsī - renouncer; yaḥ - who; na - never; dveṣṭi - abhors; na - nor; kāṅkṣati - desires; nirdvandvaḥ - free from all dualities; hi - certainly; mahā-bāho - O mighty-armed one; sukham - happily; bandhāt - from bondage; pramucyate - is completely liberated.

Translation: Know him as ever-renounced who neither hates nor desires the fruits of his action. Such a person, free from all dualities, O mighty-armed (Arjuna), easily overcomes bondage and is completely liberated.

There are guides who mislead for their own benefit - for money, sex or fame.

Anyone who is a stranger of the covenants of promise is without God and without hope.

Ah! Your promises.

Would it be just as "sick" to say that eternal life is found only through Jesus Christ?

Your 3 feet x 6 feet is waiting for you. To dream of what is not truth is sure, a 'sickness'.

 

[Maximilian]

Mark 1:4 is a good place to start. Romans 6 is a good follow up.

The word remission means to pardon or to be free from sins.

So, in your view, water baptism washes away sin?

 

[Aupmanyav]

we were given free-will and self-awareness because that is what we chose.
This is my take on the Adam and Eve story (written for a different audience).

God made man and woman and wished to give them freewill i.e. the right and ability to make choices, otherwise they would have been as slaves.

.. before the decision was made Adam and Eve like animals, had no knowledge of themselves, no ability to see themselves. .. God didn’t tempt Adam and Eve.

Why God, who could have created perfection did not make us perfect. ..

Adam and Eve story does not belong to 21st Century. God did give Adam and Eve the apparatus to disobey him. Many say Adam and Eve were tricked by God. So Adam and Eve being aware of themselves angered God? What did God want? People who are unaware of themselves?

I did not choose to have free will. What else God wants if not slaves to his covenant (threatening us with eternal hell if we fail)?
That is what I am trying to make you understand. Neither God nor his creation is perfect. And the flaw originates from him. We did not choose anything.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yeah, that suits you (because you have a manfiestation to sell).

Krishna described many ways to enlightenment, not just servitude of God (Bhakti). The problem is that you have not read Gita. There are many such verses in Gita, allow me to post just one for your information:

"Jñeyaḥ sa nitya-sannyāsī, yo na dveṣṭi na kāṅkṣati; nirdvandvo hi mahā-bāho, sukhaṁ bandhāt pramucyate."

Meanings: jñeyaḥ - should be known; saḥ - he; nitya - always; sannyāsī - renouncer; yaḥ - who; na - never; dveṣṭi - abhors; na - nor; kāṅkṣati - desires; nirdvandvaḥ - free from all dualities; hi - certainly; mahā-bāho - O mighty-armed one; sukham - happily; bandhāt - from bondage; pramucyate - is completely liberated.

Translation: Know him as ever-renounced who neither hates nor desires the fruits of his action. Such a person, free from all dualities, O mighty-armed (Arjuna), easily overcomes bondage and is completely liberated.

There are guides who mislead for their own benefit - for money, sex or fame.Ah! Your promises. Your 3 feet x 6 feet is waiting for you. To dream of what is not truth is sure, a 'sickness'.

That’s a very beautiful quote. To be free from the prison of self is true liberation. I love the Gita it has so many profound truths and wisdoms.

 

[PruePhillip]

I can call them crazy if they are abusive to others, which often they are.

Nearly one third of children in Western societies come from broken homes.
Strict divorce laws in previous generations sought to minimize this problem.
These laws were seen as being restrictive and abusive. So now we have
a much larger problem.
It's a case of be cruel to be kind, or be kind to be very cruel.

Read my tag line below...

 

[JJ50]

Nearly one third of children in Western societies come from broken homes.
Strict divorce laws in previous generations sought to minimize this problem.
These laws were seen as being restrictive and abusive. So now we have
a much larger problem.
It's a case of be cruel to be kind, or be kind to be very cruel.

Read my tag line below...

Staying married for the sake of the children is not a good idea if the parents are always rowing.

 

[dybmh]

"Physiologically traumatized" or "child abuse" are hardly terms I would use to describe Christian indoctrination

Christian Indoctrination is a 'slippery slope'? It seems like it contains potential for harm?

 

[1213]

...Besides which, what about the sins attributed to the god character, who is more evil than any human?

Please explain why you think so?

I have understood that sin is to reject God, or to live without God. I don’t think God would reject Himself.

 

[JJ50]

Please explain why you think so?

I have understood that sin is to reject God, or to live without God. I don’t think God would reject Himself.

Have you read the Bible? The deeds attributed to the god character are evil.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Read my tag line below...

That is depressing .. but you have your freedoms.