Only your religion is right. Justification please!?

[Midnight Pete]

Religion is nothing more than the public expression of personal faith. And what lies at the heart of personal faith? One's personal relationship with the Divine. It's a relationship with God that does not involve anyone else. And when two or three people gather together to share their faith, it's called the Church or the Body. The Body of Christ. Join the Church and you become part of that body.

 

[Alceste]

I am merely following the textbook definitions of what belief is. I think, if we are to discuss a subject, we should at least agree on what the terms we use actually mean.

What textbook is this? Link please. Otherwise, your place as a non-believer is to ASK what belief means, then frame the debate based on the response of believers. Otherwise you are basically a virgin spouting your opinions on sex and insisting everybody conform to your understanding. If you are so rational, you should know better.

The problem is that theism doesn't so much explain various phenomena as it tells you. And what it usually tells you is "god did it" which isn't much of an explanation.

God did what? Explain to me your "textbook understanding" of religious experience.

Empiricism enters into everything that in any shape or form influences the physical world, and since I, until evidence to the contrary surfaces, hold that the physical world is all there is, then logically empiricism enters into everything.
The mechanisms of what we call love as well as why we find certain things appealing or not is also being empirically researched and empirical evidence is building up.

So yes, even love, despite how we romantizise it, can be empirically explained.

I think you should read Hare Brain, Tortoise Mind. It might do you some good. By pinning your self-identification (ego) entirely the rational part of your mind, you can actually make yourself much stupider than you have to be. The conscious mind is great with a narrow range of simple tasks, but complex problems and deep insights are best handled by the subconscious, which is not hung up on rationality and empiricism.

 

[Rakhel]

Oooook....

But you didn't answer my question. Perhaps another day.

What's to answer. I am but a mere mortal following her own path in this crazy mixed up world.

 

[BruceDLimber]

How do you know the false ones aren't true & the true ones aren't false?

Just as I said: by investigation!

KIndly permit me to remind you that scripture not only says "Test the spirits" but also promises "Seek and ye shall find!"

Simple as that.

And indeed, one of the central principles of my religion is what we call Individual Investigation of Truth--that each of us has both the right and the duty to investigate the various religions without prejudice ("pre-judging"), decide where the truth lies, and follow that!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[jarofthoughts]

What textbook is this? Link please. Otherwise, your place as a non-believer is to ASK what belief means, then frame the debate based on the response of believers. Otherwise you are basically a virgin spouting your opinions on sex and insisting everybody conform to your understanding. If you are so rational, you should know better.

I use the Oxford Online Dictionary for all my word definitions and it states this about belief: "an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof".

And I consider belief without evidence to be delusional, defined as: "a belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument".

God did what? Explain to me your "textbook understanding" of religious experience.

I was paraphrasing the Creationist argument of Irreducible Complexity which basically states "I don't understand this therefore God must have done it".
As for what a religious experience is, that is somewhat more complicated and would take a somewhat long-winded explanation to cover properly, but here is the Wikipedia description which I think will cover most cases: "Religious experience (sometimes known as a spiritual experience, sacred experience, or mystical experience) is a subjective experience where an individual reports contact with a transcendent reality, an encounter or union with the divine.
A religious experience is most commonly known as an occurrence that is uncommon in the sense that it doesn’t fit in with the norm of everyday activities and life experiences, and its connection is with the individual’s perception of the divine. Studying religious experience objectively is a difficult task, as it is entirely a subjective phenomenon."

I think you should read Hare Brain, Tortoise Mind. It might do you some good.

I'll see if I can find it and check it out.

By pinning your self-identification (ego) entirely the rational part of your mind, you can actually make yourself much stupider than you have to be.

I don't, but I base my view of reality on what we can empirically and evidentially show is so.

The conscious mind is great with a narrow range of simple tasks, but complex problems and deep insights are best handled by the subconscious, which is not hung up on rationality and empiricism.

Conciousness appears to be an emergent property, but the rational mind by the use of the tool that is the Scientific Method has shown itself to be quite effective at dealing with complex problems and deep insights.
Keep in mind that since there is no evidence for anything supernatural I do not include the supernatural concept of spirituality into my view of reality.


Cheers.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Is there a secret society of scientist just itching to show santa doesn't exist? Any effort or need to do it is a disorder being injected into science.

I highly doubt it, but then again the majority of the population on this planet (the adult population at least) does not believe in Santa.
As I mentioned, until positive evidence that such a being exists emerges science assumes that it does not.

Could be. But it still has nothing to do with science.

Yes it does, but only in the respect that it is assumed that no such being exists. At least until some positive evidence is found.

 

[futureplanet]

I claim my religion is true for me. Whatever anyone else believes is their own business

Lets say a colour blind person sees the sky as Green and not blue.

Does this mean, the truth for this person is the sky is Green?

To me, truth means what is true and real, not perception. If a personal feeling or conviction conflicts with the truth, it does NOT make it TRUE for that person.

Basically I have a problem with using the word TRUE in such a context. If may seem real to you, just as some people think they are Elvis Presley, it may seem true to them, but is definately not the truth.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I KNOW! That is the question. How to you justify what YOU believe, knowing humans create religions and follow them?

Who said humans create religions is a given?

 

[Riverwolf]

Lets say a colour blind person sees the sky as Green and not blue.

Does this mean, the truth for this person is the sky is Green?

To me, truth means what is true and real, not perception. If a personal feeling or conviction conflicts with the truth, it does NOT make it TRUE for that person.

Basically I have a problem with using the word TRUE in such a context. If may seem real to you, just as some people think they are Elvis Presley, it may seem true to them, but is definately not the truth.

Except that doesn't always work, because religion is more than just belief about the world; it's also a way to live. The best way to live life is definitely subjective. Because there are plenty of atheistic religions, as well as religions that are more or less apathetic about whether or not God or gods exist (and some like Buddhism which encompass the whole spectrum), I'd argue that religion is more a way of life than simply believing something about the world.

In your defense, however, a better word may still be "right" rather than "true."

 

[Lawrence Mills]

Do you doubt Jesus was a real person. The bible (new testament). Was written by eye witnesses. I've been under the spirit once myself. Did many wonders such as healing, casting out demons, knew what to say to anybody I approached. The biggest problem is that too many christian arn't the way they should be. I'ts hard to costantly walk in love for everyone. Forgive everybody that wrongs you. Thats hard believe me.

 

[Midnight Pete]

"Only my religionis right. All other are false."

This is not a helpful statement. It is not a productive statement. No matter what your religious beliefs may be or how certain you are of them, such statements can only lead to disaster. But since every "Us" requires a "Them" to function, the mentality of Us vs. Them has prevailed since the beginning of history.

It's human nature that Group A compete with Group B.

It's a symptom of the dualistic thinking in which we are all trapped.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I believe judgment day is almost 8 months away, so it is imperative to know the truth. It is not all man made, but from your perspective it certainly seems that way.

Good luck...

 

[Eliot Wild]

I believe judgment day is almost 8 months away, so it is imperative to know the truth. It is not all man made, but from your perspective it certainly seems that way.

Good luck...

Okay, I just got to ask, why do you believe Judgment Day is 'almost 8 months away'? At least, if you're right, that comes after the NFL season, so I got that going for me. Maybe the last thing I'll get to see before Armageddon will be the Titans making the playoffs. But I'm working on a novel that I was hoping to start shopping around to different publishers, and if you're right, I might as well not waste the time. The book will never make it to press in the next eight months, I doubt. So, if you would, please tell us why you believe this eight-month timeframe is what we're looking at for the entire future of humankind?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Okay, I just got to ask, why do you believe Judgment Day is 'almost 8 months away'? At least, if you're right, that comes after the NFL season, so I got that going for me. Maybe the last thing I'll get to see before Armageddon will be the Titans making the playoffs. But I'm working on a novel that I was hoping to start shopping around to different publishers, and if you're right, I might as well not waste the time. The book will never make it to press in the next eight months, I doubt. So, if you would, please tell us why you believe this eight-month timeframe is what we're looking at for the entire future of humankind?

It's all in the bible man

Seriously though, narrow is the gate. So much so that I don't even claim to be entering into the gate. I certainly hope I do, but I am not pretentious enough to declare to the world, judgment day, and in the same breath declare I KNOW I am saved and going to heaven. I simply believe it is going to happen based on years of study, and current events.

If at some point between now and then you feel a deep desire to know what I know, feel free to ask. I mean I know you just asked in your post, but with all the football jokes and so forth I realize you aren't serious.

In case I am wrong, I wish you luck with your book, you seem like an intelligent poster and I am sure you would write a great book.

 

[Eliot Wild]

It's all in the bible man

Seriously though, narrow is the gate. So much so that I don't even claim to be entering into the gate. I certainly hope I do, but I am not pretentious enough to declare to the world, judgment day, and in the same breath declare I KNOW I am saved and going to heaven. I simply believe it is going to happen based on years of study, and current events.

If at some point between now and then you feel a deep desire to know what I know, feel free to ask. I mean I know you just asked in your post, but with all the football jokes and so forth I realize you aren't serious.

In case I am wrong, I wish you luck with your book, you seem like an intelligent poster and I am sure you would write a great book.

Well, thank you for the kind words. And likewise, I have usually found your posts to be quite lucid and intelligent. That is why I was a bit surprised to read your truncated prophesy regarding the future eight months from now.

But please, don't misunderstand me, I find all prophesy and predictions of future events to be a bit unbelievable, not just yours alone. That is because I hold to the rare belief that even if there is a God, He doesn't necessarily know future events. I personally see the future as unknowable, even for an omniscient being because it is knowledge that doesn't exist. I like this example: Does God the know costs of coffee on Saturn or the average heartrate of a snagglesnatchasaurus? No, because there is no coffee on Saturn and there are no snagglesnatchasauruses. I also like that example because I just love using the word 'snagglesnatchasaurus'. It's my own invention, by the way. I view the future similarly, as knowledge which doesn't even exist for God to know.

Well, I hope you see my point, even if you vehemently disagree with it. But, please don't take my lame jokes as an indicator that I will be unfair in my judgment. Even if I incapable of being serious most of the time, I still try to be open minded. Of course, I am no biblical/religious scholar and probably wouldn't understand how you arrived at your position anyway. But I am curious whenever I hear or read that someone holds a belief such as yours, as to just how they formed their views.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Well, thank you for the kind words. And likewise, I have usually found your posts to be quite lucid and intelligent. That is why I was a bit surprised to read your truncated prophesy regarding the future eight months from now.

But please, don't misunderstand me, I find all prophesy and predictions of future events to be a bit unbelievable, not just yours alone. That is because I hold to the rare belief that even if there is a God, He doesn't necessarily know future events. I personally see the future as unknowable, even for an omniscient being because it is knowledge that doesn't exist. I like this example: Does God the know costs of coffee on Saturn or the average heartrate of a snagglesnatchasaurus? No, because there is no coffee on Saturn and there are no snagglesnatchasauruses. I also like that example because I just love using the word 'snagglesnatchasaurus'. It's my own invention, by the way. I view the future similarly, as knowledge which doesn't even exist for God to know.

Well, I hope you see my point, even if you vehemently disagree with it. But, please don't take my lame jokes as an indicator that I will be unfair in my judgment. Even if I incapable of being serious most of the time, I still try to be open minded. Of course, I am no biblical/religious scholar and probably wouldn't understand how you arrived at your position anyway. But I am curious whenever I hear or read that someone holds a belief such as yours, as to just how they formed their views.

Sure... I understand.

I suppose for every reason I give, there are a hundred that can be given back to keep someone at bay. Does that make sense?

Example, [[[if I say in the bible God always forewarned before he brought destruction, we can be sure he would forewarn us when he ends the world. It would be out of character for God to not do such a thing.

From here, one could rebut: How in the world do we even take the bible seriously? Not to mention actually making claims about future events.]]]

So, in my experience, people are quick to presuppose and judge the reason for extrapolating information from the bible, rather than consider and examine what is being offered. Many times people are gun-shy as they expect someone like myself to be selling some juice or vacant seat in a church or religion, when in fact I am just examining information and sharing it and discussing it with those interested.

So looking at my example, there isn't much dogma there, it is a simple declaration that in the bible God gave warning and moreso a specific date that he would be destroying something, like Noah, Lot, the Ninevites... and as we study more we begin to see he does the same for the end of the world, which is partly why there is so much talk about the end of the world in the bible.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't need to justify them. I make sense of my existence in the best way I can. If you don't like how I do so - fine.


Why does what I believe elicit a desire for justification when it has no effect whatsoever upon you?

Of course not, but if you don't want to, why are you in the thread?

You're perfectly entitled to believe anything you like, however unjustified. Why would you want to?

 

[Autodidact]

I claim my religion is true for me. Whatever anyone else believes is their own business

O.K. now that is interesting. Could you expound a bit? Is it basically a post-modernist or constructivist view, that there is really no such thing as truth, but we all construct it for ourselves? What sort of statement can be true for one person and not for another? Could you develop how you see Christianity as fitting that? Thanks.

 

[Autodidact]

I disagree.
There is only subjectivity. No one has a 'gods eye view'.
We see things as black or white, true or not because that's how we are.
I believe in objective reality but I do not believe it is knowable.

So can we ever say of any statement that it is true?

2 = 2 = 4?
World War Two happened?
President Obama was born in Hawaii?

 

[Autodidact]

Right. Do you agree to the premise that god either exists or does not exist?
I mean, it would be a major feature of our universe. Surely if he exists, then he exists for everyone and not just you, right?
So this would be an obvious instance in which something is either true or it is not.

Which means that your religion and your faith cannot logically in any way be "true for you".

Yes, this would be more or less my question. Aretha Franklin exists (blessed be.) Whether you know about her or not, she still exists, in a sense this is true for everyone, whether they know it or not.
Is God in the same category? Does He exist for everyone, whether they know it or not?
Or does God exist in some other sense?