Origin of life

[FearGod]

Sorry, but I must say that you are simply wrong.

Why i'm being wrong ?

Now, this much is true, but incomplete and IMO misleading.

How true and misleading ?

 

[LuisDantas]

Why i'm being wrong ?

When you say that

I mean not only believers believe that the universe is a product of a plan and design, so it has nothing to do with religion but with logic.

You are implying that belief in God must follow logically from ... something, I am not certain what. Such is not the case.

How true and misleading ?

You said:

You don't want to see God in it, and some others see God in it.

It is true that I don't care to "see God", and that of course some people see God as part of existence.

But I have little clue why you insist on seeing that as a choice. Some people simply are atheists. If there is a God, he certainly does not want us to believe in him.

 

[LuisDantas]

Which information ?
Tell me which information that i had refused to accept and to discuss.

Biology, for one.

Yes i know, that's your choice and have no problem with it.

Nope, not a choice. Just what I am.

 

[YmirGF]

True that. DNA is simply not at all intelligent, although it is wonderful in its own way.

Somewhat like a lot of creationists.

 

[FearGod]

When you say that

You are implying that belief in God must follow logically from ... something, I am not certain what. Such is not the case.

No, you misunderstood my words.
I meant to say every one think of it according to his logic regardless of religious beliefs

It is true that I don't care to "see God", and that of course some people see God as part of existence.

But I have little clue why you insist on seeing that as a choice. Some people simply are atheists. If there is a God, he certainly does not want us to believe in him.

I don't think God wants us to be anything, we're free.
Why some do kill, is it that God wants them to be killers or was that their own choice ?

 

[FearGod]

Biology, for one.

Does biology explain how life started from vacuum ?

Nope, not a choice. Just what I am.

Do you mean it's already predetermined ?
I heard about this that each soul is already predetermined as what her life will be, but i find it hard to understand this concept.

 

[dust1n]

Does biology explain how life started from vacuum ?

Nothing does.

 

[Sapiens]

Where did life come from ?

During the big bang no life can exist, so what made the first cell of life to exist without being born.

Why the DNA is complex and is adjustable (mutations), how you explain those things to happen without any intelligence being involved ?

We do not know exactly where life came from. It is a sufficiently complex problem that I rather doubt we will ever know definitively. Life began long before the first cell and that was most likely a fusion of two (or more) "live" precursors. DNA is actually rather simple, I do not doubt that there were non-adjustable, non-mutable forms that were out-competed by forms that could raise their fitness via natural selection. The involvement of "intelligence" in the process is entirely unnecessary and invoking it is can only be done on the basis of the logical fallacy of an argument from ignorance, since there is no actual evidence to indicate it.

 

[McBell]

I ain't looking for straw man arguments, but scientific and logical ones.

They asked me to study biology to understand what i want to understand about life, but i stopped at this point and hope some will have a scientific answer for it than chances, coincidences and that is how things happened to be.

.

Do you think a matter existing out of nothing isn't equivalent to magic, how that can be logic to you.
Do you think it is a natural thing that matter to exist without the need for anything to cause it and just to exist out of nothingness.
Do you think we are the product of a dumb DNA and the inanimate stones ?

Make up your mind.
You claim you are not looking for strawmen yet present strawmen at every turn...

Perhaps you mean you want someone to dumb it down enough for you to understand it?

 

[columbus]

How could you know what is God ?

The many answers to this question is why I don't believe in religion.

I do believe in God, but not Islam or Hinduism or the Greek pantheon or any of the other religions humans have invented.

This is because scientific answers are honest. Sometimes the answer to a question is "Here is the evidence and it is really strong". Sometimes it is "Here is the best guess at the moment, but it might be wrong". Sometimes it is just "Nobody knows".
Science is learning about God by honest investigation of Creation.
Religion is learning about God by studying human beings and their delusions and dreams and stories and beliefs.

I don't mean to pick on Islam in particular. But the belief that God sent everything we need to know to Muhammad in a cave is simply unbelievable to me. On the other hand, modern scientists have developed a very rigorous method to accurately describe God. The ancient primitive beliefs about God pale in comparison to the huge God described by science.

I believe in the huge God of science, not the weak god of ancient, ignorant, people. No matter how confidently they assert themselves.

Tom

 

[Godobeyer]

Science is learning about God by honest investigation of Creation.
Religion is learning about God by studying human beings and their delusions and dreams and stories and beliefs.

so you are not atheist ?

can you explain to us how you learning about God by honest investigation of creation ?

why you reject the religions which repeatly encourage to believe in creator ?

 

[Parsimony]

Giving terms for fallacies won't solve the Dilemma.

Nor is it supposed to solve the dilemma. It will remain a dilemma until proof is found one way or the other. Arguments from ignorance are not proof.

I understand from your posting that one day we'll find out that God didn't it ?

You understood wrongly. I said that we don't know how life got here. That doesn't imply anything.

how sure are you that we'll prove that God doesn't exist, is it that how you feel about it, common sense?

When did I ever say anything about proving that God doesn't exist? Even if abiogenesis was proven, that still wouldn't disprove the existence of God nor do I claim that it would.

 

[columbus]

so you are not atheist ?

I am not an atheist exactly. Deist is a better description.
Most people think I am an atheist because I don't believe in religious claims about God.
I believe that God is the reason that there is something rather than nothing. But I don't believe humans when they claim to know what God is like or wants or is planning based on delusions. That is religion.
Science is the best way to understand God. Because scientists correct each other when they are wrong about Creation. Religionists don't. They just make claims that they can't support except with political power.

Tom

 

[columbus]

can you explain to us how you learning about God by honest investigation of creation ?

The only thing we can really know about God is that Creation exists. So, therefore, God.
That doesn't tell us anything about the Creator. We must find out for ourselves.
Humans are very prone to mistakes. They believe almost anything if it makes them happy, no matter how obviously wrong it is. Like Jesus' resurrection, for example.
Science doesn't make that sort of mistake, believing in unsupported assertions. Scientists don't resort to human authority about God. They give you evidence from God, as God made Creation. Not some human claim to know God.

Tom

 

[FearGod]

We do not know exactly where life came from. It is a sufficiently complex problem that I rather doubt we will ever know definitively. Life began long before the first cell and that was most likely a fusion of two (or more) "live" precursors. DNA is actually rather simple, I do not doubt that there were non-adjustable, non-mutable forms that were out-competed by forms that could raise their fitness via natural selection. The involvement of "intelligence" in the process is entirely unnecessary and invoking it is can only be done on the basis of the logical fallacy of an argument from ignorance, since there is no actual evidence to indicate it.

What makes you think the DNA is simple ?

 

[Sapiens]

What makes you think the DNA is simple ?

My son was able to grasp the concepts rather well at age seven, for that to occur it must be fairly simple.

 

[FearGod]

My son was able to grasp the concepts rather well at age seven, for that to occur it must be fairly simple.

I know that biology is very easy subject which is the reason that most of the biologist are light-minded or having a child's mind as i have always think, but that doesn't mean the DNA is simple, consult your son about that and revert to me.

 

[Sapiens]

If biology were a simple subject you'd not be asking stupid questions all the time ... DNA, mutation and selection are rather simple to grasp, though YECs fail, even at that.

 

[columbus]

My son was able to grasp the concepts rather well at age seven, for that to occur it must be fairly simple.

That is rather poor anecdotal evidence. When I was seven I could tell you a great deal about Jesus because my dad told me stuff.
Tom

 

[FearGod]

If biology were a simple subject you'd not be asking stupid questions all the time ... DNA, mutation and selection are rather simple to grasp, though YECs fail, even at that.

What that have to do with the complexity of the DNA ?
Did you understand my question ?