outrage with islam

[Meow Mix]

Those pictures make my stomach feel sick.

The one that says freedom of expression is western terrorism is ironic though.

 

[Sahar]

I think what he meant to say is that unless non-Muslims understand the Quran and Islam the "conflict" between the Western culture and Islamic culture cannot be resolved.

I hope this is correct ellenjanuary.

,

I agree with you in the relative sense. Arabic is your language, the Qu'ran is your culture; but in my relative sense, I'm a non-Muslim, English-speaking American in the fabulously wealthy city of Phoenix. Things are definitely different here. I don't personally know any Muslims; I know all kinds of Christians. I've argued with them about Islam, introduced a few to the Koran, and take the stand that Islam is not the "monster" portrayed by the popular media.

Admittedly, my knowledge is limited without an in-depth understanding of Arabic; but I can still voice an opinion on the things I do understand.

Thank you A-ManES and ellenjanuary for your explanation.
In that sense, I don't disagree with you. Maybe what I meant that Muslims are not waiting for non Muslims to explain the Qur'an and issue verdicts for them. The non Muslim understanding here should be irrelevant. If Muslims believe that alcohol consumption is forbidden in the Qur'an and they apply this ruling in their lives and a non Muslim came and said "no, it's not forbidden"...this should mean nothing to Muslims.

Regarding your point; you know basically the Qur'an has a message and this message seek to be conveyed to people in the different places thus understanding Islam by a non Muslim is essential to determine if this message has any truth; to accept or to reject it. Also as you say removing the stereotypes and the negative views is going to be through understanding, absolutely. I don't disagree.

 

[crimsonlung]

I agree, and this topic alone with the above statement could on for ever.

BUT

just what would you call murdering a mother of 5 because shes 1 of 2 christians family's in a village full of muslims. ??? how copuld you not make it out to be a monster???

This is Western thinking, look at how the people live in North Korea, don't you think that is absolutely insane? But its accepted over there, its all cultural and relative. Why do we think murder is bad? Because we as a culture have agreed that murder is bad. Why do South Koreans think that putting people in concentration camps for forgetting to worship to Kim Jung Il one morning is normal. That part of the country where they sentenced this woman to death believes its normal to kill for insulting their religion. They dont speak for the whole continent, yes, its a horrible thing, but if I was raised in that environment, I would be all for her death I am sure. Personally, I think the woman is an idiot for choosing to live in that place.

 

[crimsonlung]

Those pictures make my stomach feel sick.

The one that says freedom of expression is western terrorism is ironic though.

Haha, that is true, she is picketing what she is against, which makes her a western terrorist in the east.

 

[Meow Mix]

This is Western thinking, look at how the people live in North Korea, don't you think that is absolutely insane? But its accepted over there, its all cultural and relative.

*Raises hand* I think that what happens in North Korea is just as bad.

Where do you say it's accepted? I'm sure all the people rotting in prisons for having opinions contrary to the government's don't "accept" it.

 

[Nepenthe]

This is Western thinking, look at how the people live in North Korea, don't you think that is absolutely insane? But its accepted over there, its all cultural and relative. Why do we think murder is bad? Because we as a culture have agreed that murder is bad. Why do South Koreans think that putting people in concentration camps for forgetting to worship to Kim Jung Il one morning is normal.

Maybe I'm missing some subtle nuance in your post...
I find it difficult to believe this is accepted without criticism in N. Korea when to date 17,000 refugees have escaped to S. Korea and in the past few years the number of dissidents has averaged 3,000 a year. A large human rights movement against N. Korea has taken root with the distribution of dvds, literature as well as three radio stations- Free North Korea, Radion Free Chosun, and North Korea Reform.

I know of two people (one is a friend) that escaped N. Korea in the late 70s. Granted they were babies when they left but their biological parents saw to it that they had an opportunity outside of N. Korea's oppressive regime and arranged their escape to S. Korea, then to the U.S. The oppressive regime is most definitely not accepted uncritically over there.

 

[outhouse]

I would be all for her death I am sure

then this makes it sick and perverted in my opinion

dont switch the buck, here. Thats the mojority of the problem and why barbarian practices go on today.

why bring Korea in, it has no relevance here. There governement is sick to ya we know.

So what it extends into culture thast the biggest cop out of all [distgusted]

Based on what your saying, i shoudl accept the fact many parts of the world are still barbaric and twisted.

It may be true be we are not stoneage tribesmen anymore. Its time to grow up

 

[Sahar]

except for 'deliberately' part. IMO that's not the issue here


.

You are right. Thanks!

 

[Quagmire]

is this the most sad thing in the whole world

2 men of different culture cannot sit down to discus topics to end conflicts without the other person doing homework to please the other party.

does anyone else see the circular thinking and insanity with this? [this is not directed at you a-man just at the statement at hand]

So you really think attempting to understand where the person sitting across the table from you is coming from is kissing butt somehow?

It's as if you're saying, "I refuse to understand you, but I'm going to judge you anyway, according to my own standards, which I don't expect you to understand". Doesn't sound like a real promising scenario as far as resolution goes, but it's a fantastic recipe for self-righteousness.

 

[crimsonlung]

then this makes it sick and perverted in my opinion

dont switch the buck, here. Thats the mojority of the problem and why barbarian practices go on today.

why bring Korea in, it has no relevance here. There governement is sick to ya we know.

So what it extends into culture thast the biggest cop out of all [distgusted]

Based on what your saying, i shoudl accept the fact many parts of the world are still barbaric and twisted.

It may be true be we are not stoneage tribesmen anymore. Its time to grow up

Way to take my quote out of context Fox news. And I brought Korea into this because you can see the blind submission, its the same exact way in the Middle East. I'm not saying its good, but how do you know you wouldn't do the same thing in that country if you were raised in that environment? Its the same reason people in the tribes of Africa out in the jungle away from civilization still deform their bodies and hunt with spears. You don't have to accept it, but have a better understanding of it, from what your saying, is that they think its wrong, but they are still doing it. They don't think its wrong. I'm not defending it, I was raised in America, I think its a horrible thing, but if you know anything about the politics in our country, it can be just as bad.

 

[crimsonlung]

Maybe I'm missing some subtle nuance in your post...
I find it difficult to believe this is accepted without criticism in N. Korea when to date 17,000 refugees have escaped to S. Korea and in the past few years the number of dissidents has averaged 3,000 a year. A large human rights movement against N. Korea has taken root with the distribution of dvds, literature as well as three radio stations- Free North Korea, Radion Free Chosun, and North Korea Reform.

I know of two people (one is a friend) that escaped N. Korea in the late 70s. Granted they were babies when they left but their biological parents saw to it that they had an opportunity outside of N. Korea's oppressive regime and arranged their escape to S. Korea, then to the U.S. The oppressive regime is most definitely not accepted uncritically over there.

There are more that 17,000 people in Korea right? So your telling me a small fraction of the population doesn't agree with they way they run things since North Korea's inception, so they left? What about the other 23 mil? (more than 23 mil since that is just todays population) Sure its not completely accepted by some of its inhabitants, but majority rule. I suggest you watch the North Korean National Geographic documentary, one of the more interesting of the bunch.

But that is neither here nor there, the point is, North Korean rule is generally accepted in North Korea, Saudi Arabian rule is generally accepted in Saudi Arabia, Pakistani rule is generally accepted in Pakistan.

 

[Meow Mix]

There are more that 17,000 people in Korea right? So your telling me a small fraction of the population doesn't agree with they way they run things since North Korea's inception, so they left? What about the other 23 mil? (more than 23 mil since that is just todays population) Sure its not completely accepted by some of its inhabitants, but majority rule. I suggest you watch the North Korean National Geographic documentary, one of the more interesting of the bunch.

But that is neither here nor there, the point is, North Korean rule is generally accepted in North Korea, Saudi Arabian rule is generally accepted in Saudi Arabia, Pakistani rule is generally accepted in Pakistan.

How do you know they support the oppressive regime?

If you lived under an oppressive regime with the penalty of death or imprisonment for disagreeing with the ruling party, would you check the "yes" box next to the "I disagree with our government" question that some stranger asks you, even if they promised it was completely confidential?

Or would you stiffen your lips, stand up straight and say "Long live the king!" with your fingers crossed behind your back?

 

[Autodidact]

This is Western thinking, look at how the people live in North Korea, don't you think that is absolutely insane? But its accepted over there, its all cultural and relative. Why do we think murder is bad? Because we as a culture have agreed that murder is bad. Why do South Koreans think that putting people in concentration camps for forgetting to worship to Kim Jung Il one morning is normal. That part of the country where they sentenced this woman to death believes its normal to kill for insulting their religion. They dont speak for the whole continent, yes, its a horrible thing, but if I was raised in that environment, I would be all for her death I am sure. Personally, I think the woman is an idiot for choosing to live in that place.

Wait, what? Murder is not necessarily bad; it's all relative, so in Pakistan it's morally right to kill this woman, and she's an idiot for being born in the wrong place?

And no criticism of the people who want to kill her?
Wow.

 

[outhouse]

So you really think attempting to understand where the person sitting across the table from you is coming from is kissing butt somehow?

It's as if you're saying, "I refuse to understand you, but I'm going to judge you anyway, according to my own standards, which I don't expect you to understand". Doesn't sound like a real promising scenario as far as resolution goes, but it's a fantastic recipe for self-righteousness.

On this count im not taking it in your context posted. I humbly respect your opinion.

All, im saying is there are barbaric practices that need to be STOPPED NOW!

it shows a huge weakness in mankinds ability to communicate and progress if we/they act in a primitive barbaric fashion.

I have no problem learning someones else viewpoint but if your going to use this to sugar coat crimes against humanity your barking up the wrong tree.

 

[outhouse]

Way to take my quote out of context Fox news. And I brought Korea into this because you can see the blind submission, its the same exact way in the Middle East. I'm not saying its good, but how do you know you wouldn't do the same thing in that country if you were raised in that environment? Its the same reason people in the tribes of Africa out in the jungle away from civilization still deform their bodies and hunt with spears. You don't have to accept it, but have a better understanding of it, from what your saying, is that they think its wrong, but they are still doing it. They don't think its wrong. I'm not defending it, I was raised in America, I think its a horrible thing, but if you know anything about the politics in our country, it can be just as bad.

I understand blind submission, and I understand that people live like primitive barbarians, I feel by turning our backs on it and doing nothing is a form of acception.

What can we/they do is the real question here.

I dont expect muslims to do anything as they cant agree on 1 thing except hatered with all the different sects, they fight amoungst therselves as much as they do with non muslims. in my opinion Im not sure what they could do even if they thought of a change they would accept.

I understand my view is typical western stereotype, and how will this ever change with the tragedy that goes on daily.

 

[crimsonlung]

Wait, what? Murder is not necessarily bad; it's all relative, so in Pakistan it's morally right to kill this woman, and she's an idiot for being born in the wrong place?

And no criticism of the people who want to kill her?
Wow.

Here you are assuming she was born there, chances are that if she was insulting an Islam in that region, she was not born there.

Murder is bad because you were raised to think it! Your not thinking logically, your thinking emotionally.

And I have already said I disagree with it several times, what more criticism do you want?

Wow...

 

[Autodidact]

There are more that 17,000 people in Korea right? So your telling me a small fraction of the population doesn't agree with they way they run things since North Korea's inception, so they left? What about the other 23 mil? (more than 23 mil since that is just todays population) Sure its not completely accepted by some of its inhabitants, but majority rule. I suggest you watch the North Korean National Geographic documentary, one of the more interesting of the bunch.

But that is neither here nor there, the point is, North Korean rule is generally accepted in North Korea, Saudi Arabian rule is generally accepted in Saudi Arabia, Pakistani rule is generally accepted in Pakistan.

Uh huh, and...? So what? What's your point?

 

[Autodidact]

Here you are assuming she was born there, chances are that if she was insulting an Islam in that region, she was not born there.[/quot] (1) You're assuming that she's guilty. She claims she's not. (2) Yeah, I'm assuming that a Pakistani Christian woman was born there, since few Christians immigrate to Pakistan.

Murder is bad because you were raised to think it! Your not thinking logically, your thinking emotionally.

No, murder is wrong because it's wrong, regardless of how I was raised.

And I have already said I disagree with it several times, what more criticism do you want?

I missed that.

 

[crimsonlung]

I understand blind submission, and I understand that people live like primitive barbarians, I feel by turning our backs on it and doing nothing is a form of acception.

What can we/they do is the real question here.

I don't expect muslims to do anything as they cant agree on 1 thing except hatered with all the different sects, they fight amoungst therselves as much as they do with non muslims. in my opinion Im not sure what they could do even if they thought of a change they would accept.

I understand my view is typical western stereotype, and how will this ever change with the tragedy that goes on daily.

The Muslims you see here in the States are the nicest people you will ever meet, when I visited the Middle East, I thought they were mostly ******** (the males, the Females were all nice) Its completely different culture. When you say "They" it sounds like you are saying all Muslims. Trust me, there is only a small percentage of people who are like what you explain.

 

[Nepenthe]

There are more that 17,000 people in Korea right? So your telling me a small fraction of the population doesn't agree with they way they run things since North Korea's inception, so they left? What about the other 23 mil? (more than 23 mil since that is just todays population) Sure its not completely accepted by some of its inhabitants, but majority rule.

Of course only a minority has successfully escaped N. Korea; travelling to S. Korea from the North isn't exactly like driving across the Canadian border. That's not the point though; my post was in response to:

This is Western thinking, look at how the people live in North Korea, don't you think that is absolutely insane? But its accepted over there, its all cultural and relative.

Not to derail the thread but.....
If you're arguing that cultures often practice things other cultures find abhorrent then yes, that's obvious. But to make a condescending application of cultural relativism and arguing that Kim Jong's cult of personality is accepted by the oppressed since it's "all cultural and relative" is simply not true by the simple fact that a minority of the population has escaped the state.

I suggest you watch the North Korean National Geographic documentary, one of the more interesting of the bunch.

Thx.
Haggard (director of the Korean-Pacific program at UCSD) and Noland (an economist who focuses on Asian economies) have written extensively on North Korea and the human rights abuses there. They conducted an interesting study in '08 where they interviewed 300 refugees who had escaped to S. Korea. Of course the sample is biased in that people who actively escaped are more likely to have a negative opinion of their government, but the demographic representation of the refugees has changed from the elite high ranking party members (who would predictably be the first to flee, much like wealthy Cubans) and now reflects the poor, farmers and uneducated, thus reflecting a demographic that would typically stick it out under a repressive regime. Across the board North Koreans overwhelmingly opposed the N. Korean system.

This is a state that had huge riots in 1991 in Siniuju after the loss of energy sources and lack of food as well as an attempted coup in 1992. Both Kim Jong II and Kim II Sung constantly feared being assassinated by the oppressed peoples. The idea that it's "accepted over there" or:

"South [North- edit mine] Koreans think that putting people in concentration camps for forgetting to worship to Kim Jung Il one morning is normal."

is just not born out by the testimony and opinion of those who have offered it.

But that is neither here nor there, the point is, North Korean rule is generally accepted in North Korea, Saudi Arabian rule is generally accepted in Saudi Arabia, Pakistani rule is generally accepted in Pakistan.

Even if that's the case, what relevance does that have in condemning human rights violations? In Africa, the Lord's Resistance Army has enslaved, raped, mutilated and murdered; they've abducted up to 30,000 children averaging around 10 to 13 years old and use them as sex slaves and child soldiers. Their bizarre beliefs and wanton destruction is mingled with traditional Acholi culture and a fundamentalist form of Christianity. But this doesn't remove them from criticism, they can't be exempt from condemnation because their leaders and culture may frown less on raping 10 year olds and chopping off their limbs than Westerners.