palestine is for Jews or arabs ?

[Godobeyer]

What proof, other than the Qur'an, Hadiths and Sunahs, do you have that the books of G-d were edited?

nice try

 

[Godobeyer]

Obviously you want to have the last word. be my guest. I don't want to feel like I am robbing a child of a toy.

you realy care for islam more than me ?

 

[Rakhel]

nice try

so you have nothing to proof that which you claim.

 

[Godobeyer]

so you have nothing to proof that which you claim.

what i claim ? can you give exemples ?

 

[Godobeyer]

i suggest to remove this thread to political section .

 

[Rakhel]

You claim that we, the Jews, or at least our ancestors, edited the Torah.
What proof, other than the Qu'ran, Hadith and Sunah, do you have to this claim?

You see it is not to me to provide examples.
You are the one that made the claim.
You are the one that must provide proof.

 

[Rakhel]

I request that this thread remain in religious debates as it is a religious topic.

 

[Godobeyer]

You claim that we, the Jews, or at least our ancestors, edited the Torah.
What proof, other than the Qu'ran, Hadith and Sunah, do you have to this claim?

edited : the Torah it's self said i am corrupt . when it's claim that Jacob fought God and won him , then God bless him for that .

You see it is not to me to provide examples.
You are the one that made the claim.
You are the one that must provide proof.

i don't said i did not provide exemples or claims , i said which one to rediscuss it .

 

[-Peacemaker-]

You claim that we, the Jews, or at least our ancestors, edited the Torah.
What proof, other than the Qu'ran, Hadith and Sunah, do you have to this claim?

You see it is not to me to provide examples.
You are the one that made the claim.
You are the one that must provide proof.

The charge of biblical corruption is easy to verify by looking at the existing ancient copies of the Bible. I realize this is about the OT but bear with me. When it comes to the NT, we have around 24000 ancient copies in existence, with 5000 in the original Greek. They come from all over the ancient world. Guess what? They all basically say the same think. If someone did attempt to corrupt a text, there would be existing unaltered copies from all over that we could use to verify it's authenticity. There are even Muslim scholars with enough integrity and knowledge to admit that it's impossible the NT could be altered. I haven't researched the OT nearly as much but I'm sure the same principles apply. Not to mention the fact that the people making charges of corruption have already lost all credibility in my eyes due to their ignorance about the NT.

 

[Reverend Rick]

The charge of biblical corruption is easy to verify by looking at the existing ancient copies of the Bible. I realize this is about the OT but bear with me. When it comes to the NT, we have around 24000 ancient copies in existence, with 5000 in the original Greek. They come from all over the ancient world. Guess what? They all basically say the same think. If someone did attempt to corrupt a text, there would be existing unaltered copies from all over that we could use to verify it's authenticity. There are even Muslim scholars with enough integrity and knowledge to admit that it's impossible the NT could be altered. I haven't researched the OT nearly as much but I'm sure the same principles apply. Not to mention the fact that the people making charges of corruption have already lost all credibility in my eyes due to their ignorance about the NT.

Apples and Oranges

 

[Rakhel]

edited : the Torah it's self said i am corrupt . when it's claim that Jacob fought God and won him , then God bless him for that .

i don't said i did not provide exemples or claims , i said which one to rediscuss it .

Dude...

I am going to chalk this up to your not understanding my English, much less yours, and leave it at that.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Apples and Oranges

The only differences I could see would be the fact that we have existing copies of the NT within a couple generations of Jesus' life and the fact that Judaism didn't spread around the ancient world like Christianity did, leaving us less copies. Do you think that is enough to make the OT unverifiable?

 

[Godobeyer]

The charge of biblical corruption is easy to verify by looking at the existing ancient copies of the Bible. I realize this is about the OT but bear with me. When it comes to the NT, we have around 24000 ancient copies in existence, with 5000 in the original Greek. They come from all over the ancient world. Guess what? They all basically say the same think. If someone did attempt to corrupt a text, there would be existing unaltered copies from all over that we could use to verify it's authenticity.

and you have more than faked gospels , the fours gospels the christains scholars chose them by trust ....etc

There are even Muslim scholars with enough integrity and knowledge to admit that it's impossible the NT could be altered. I haven't researched the OT nearly as much but I'm sure the same principles apply. Not to mention the fact that the people making charges of corruption have already lost all credibility in my eyes due to their ignorance about the NT.

realy ? whom these Muslims scholars whom said the NT is not corrupted ?

 

[HiddenDjinn]

edited : the Torah it's self said i am corrupt . when it's claim that Jacob fought God and won him , then God bless him for that .

i don't said i did not provide exemples or claims , i said which one to rediscuss it .

Your inability to interpret our text in context is not evidence that it was "corrupted" or "edited". Instead, it is evidence of your ignorance and inability to read and interpret our text.

Your claimed interpretation and the mere suggestion that you are correctly reading the text given your interpretation is only further evidence of your ignorance and further of your hubris.

Your inability to defend your positions against even your own holy book is further evidence of your ignorance.

Go study and come back when you are a scholar.

Oh, and...learn a little English, I get headaches trying to decipher your broken text.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

and you have more than faked gospels , the fours gospels the christains scholars chose them by trust ....etc


realy ? whom these Muslims scholars whom said the NT is not corrupted ?

Have you even read the Injeel? Even Mohammed (pbuh) speaks of it with reverence

 

[Shermana]

Jacob fought with an Angel, "Elohim" can also be references to angels depending on context and grammar.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Have you even read the Injeel? Even Mohammed (pbuh) speaks of it with reverence

Yes but... it is a common belief among muslims that the New Testament has been corrupted.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Ok, let's say there was once a guy who met a girl and told her "If you promise to love and obey me, you can live in my house" then he gets mad at her and kicks her out, changes his mind and moves her back in. The years go by and gets bored and he kicks her out again.

Then he meets second girl and promises her the same thing but he is also having a fling with another, eventually the second girl and the third girl get into fight and go back and forth kicking each other out of the house while first girl longs to return home.

Eventually the first girl moves back in and kicks the second girl out and they start fighting and the guy isn't saying anything or doing anything to stop them.

Wouldn't you think that this guy is abusive and probably lying cheat?

 

[Marble]

And why has that claim been honored? Why is it still honored?

Shoa (Holocaust).

 

[Godobeyer]

Your inability to interpret our text in context is not evidence that it was "corrupted" or "edited". Instead, it is evidence of your ignorance and inability to read and interpret our text.

Your claimed interpretation and the mere suggestion that you are correctly reading the text given your interpretation is only further evidence of your ignorance and further of your hubris.

Your inability to defend your positions against even your own holy book is further evidence of your ignorance.

Go study and come back when you are a scholar.

Oh, and...learn a little English, I get headaches trying to decipher your broken text.

look the word Elohim , is refer to God , and it's plural of respect as i know , if all/most 99.9 % of the Torah (you holy books) refer to God , then you in three or four verses you claim it's refered to angels , for me it's good justification , it's run ahead from the truth that your books were edited .

see this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

Angels and Judges

In a few cases in the Greek Septuagint, Hebrew elohim with a plural verb, or with implied plural context, was rendered either angeloipros to kriterion tou Theou ("before the judgement of God").[11] These passages then entered first the Latin Vulgate, then the English King James Version as "angels" and "judges", respectively. From this came the result that James Strong, for example, listed "angels" and "judges" as possible meanings for elohim with a plural verb in his Strong's Concordance, and the same is true of many other 17th-20th Century reference works. Both Gesenius' Hebrew Lexicon and the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon list both angels and judges as possible alternative meanings of elohim with plural verbs and adjectives. ("angels") or
However, the reliability of the Septuagint translation in this matter has been questioned by some. In the case of Gesenius, he lists the meaning without agreeing with it.[12] Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg published the conclusion that the Hebrew Bible text never uses elohim to refer to "angels", but that the Septuagint translators refused the references to "gods" in the verses they amended to "angels."[13]
[edit] Ambiguous readings

Sometimes when elohim occurs as the referent or object (i.e. not subject) of a sentence, and without any accompanying verb or adjective to indicate plurality, it may be grammatically unclear whether gods plural or God singular is intended. An example is Psalm 8:5 where "Yet you have made him a little lower than the elohim" is ambiguous as to whether "lower than the gods" or "lower than God" is intended. The Septuagint read this as "gods" and then corrected the translation to "angels", which reading is taken up by the New Testament in Hebrews 2:9 "But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus".
[edit] Other plural-singulars in Biblical Hebrew

Main article: Pluralis excellentiae
The Hebrew language has several nouns with -im (masculine plural) and -oth (feminine plural) endings which nevertheless take singular verbs, adjectives and pronouns. For example Ba'alim "owner": "He is lord (singular) even over any of those things that he owns that are lordly (plural)."[citation needed] Alternately, Elohim is sometimes regarded as a plural of excellence rather than number.[14]
[edit] Jacob's ladder "gods were revealed" (plural)

In the following verses Elohim was translated as God singular in the King James Version even though it was accompanied by plural verbs and other plural grammatical terms.

Gen 35:7 and there he built an altar and called the place El-bethel, because there God had revealed (plural verb) himself to him when he fled from his brother (Genesis 35:7, ESV)
​

Here the Hebrew verb "revealed" is plural, hence: "the-gods were revealed". A NET Bible note claims that the Authorized Version wrongly translates: "God appeared unto him".[15] This is one of several instances where the Bible uses plural verbs with the name elohim.[16][17]

in this article, it's seems that the christians (not you ) whom change the concept of "Elohim", to fix the corrupted context , to be acceptible in the meaning .