palestine is for Jews or arabs ?

[Godobeyer]

Ok, let's say there was once a guy who met a girl and told her "If you promise to love and obey me, you can live in my house" then he gets mad at her and kicks her out, changes his mind and moves her back in. The years go by and gets bored and he kicks her out again.


Then he meets second girl and promises her the same thing but he is also having a fling with another, eventually the second girl and the third girl get into fight and go back and forth kicking each other out of the house while first girl longs to return home.


Eventually the first girl moves back in and kicks the second girl out and they start fighting and the guy isn't saying anything or doing anything to stop them.

Wouldn't you think that this guy is abusive and probably lying cheat?

in that verse , God tell , that he was provoked , and he will provoked them for that .
accautly we the muslims considerate that God sent many Messangers to jews , as if some one ILL in hospital, rechecked by many doctors many times , then when the hospital see that there no hope .
decide to leave him and check other patient.

 

[Caladan]

Ok, let's say there was once a guy who met a girl and told her "If you promise to love and obey me, you can live in my house" then he gets mad at her and kicks her out, changes his mind and moves her back in. The years go by and gets bored and he kicks her out again.

Then he meets second girl and promises her the same thing but he is also having a fling with another, eventually the second girl and the third girl get into fight and go back and forth kicking each other out of the house while first girl longs to return home.

Eventually the first girl moves back in and kicks the second girl out and they start fighting and the guy isn't saying anything or doing anything to stop them.

Wouldn't you think that this guy is abusive and probably lying cheat?

Only if there was a guy in the first place. first girl could have written abundant love poetry about a fictitious lover, just like the other girls in her neighborhood. when some of the other girls in her neighborhood kicked her out, she still kept writing her poems, not only that, but she also made progress in the plot. in her plot, the promise the lover made to her was never broken. but like in any passionate relationship their love was full of challenges and storms.
BTW, this works whether the lover is fictitious or not. and nowhere in this girl poetry did her lover ever made the same promises to other girls.

 

[Rakhel]

look the word Elohim , is refer to God , and it's plural of respect as i know , if all/most 99.9 % of the Torah (you holy books) refer to God , then you in three or four verses you claim it's refered to angels , for me it's good justification , it's run ahead from the truth that your books were edited .

see this link
Elohim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Angels and Judges

In a few cases in the Greek Septuagint, Hebrew elohim with a plural verb, or with implied plural context, was rendered either angeloipros to kriterion tou Theou ("before the judgement of God").[11] These passages then entered first the Latin Vulgate, then the English King James Version as "angels" and "judges", respectively. From this came the result that James Strong, for example, listed "angels" and "judges" as possible meanings for elohim with a plural verb in his Strong's Concordance, and the same is true of many other 17th-20th Century reference works. Both Gesenius' Hebrew Lexicon and the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon list both angels and judges as possible alternative meanings of elohim with plural verbs and adjectives. ("angels") or
However, the reliability of the Septuagint translation in this matter has been questioned by some. In the case of Gesenius, he lists the meaning without agreeing with it.[12] Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg published the conclusion that the Hebrew Bible text never uses elohim to refer to "angels", but that the Septuagint translators refused the references to "gods" in the verses they amended to "angels."[13]
[edit] Ambiguous readings

Sometimes when elohim occurs as the referent or object (i.e. not subject) of a sentence, and without any accompanying verb or adjective to indicate plurality, it may be grammatically unclear whether gods plural or God singular is intended. An example is Psalm 8:5 where "Yet you have made him a little lower than the elohim" is ambiguous as to whether "lower than the gods" or "lower than God" is intended. The Septuagint read this as "gods" and then corrected the translation to "angels", which reading is taken up by the New Testament in Hebrews 2:9 "But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus".
[edit] Other plural-singulars in Biblical Hebrew

Main article: Pluralis excellentiae
The Hebrew language has several nouns with -im (masculine plural) and -oth (feminine plural) endings which nevertheless take singular verbs, adjectives and pronouns. For example Ba'alim "owner": "He is lord (singular) even over any of those things that he owns that are lordly (plural)."[citation needed] Alternately, Elohim is sometimes regarded as a plural of excellence rather than number.[14]
[edit] Jacob's ladder "gods were revealed" (plural)

In the following verses Elohim was translated as God singular in the King James Version even though it was accompanied by plural verbs and other plural grammatical terms.

Gen 35:7 and there he built an altar and called the place El-bethel, because there God had revealed (plural verb) himself to him when he fled from his brother (Genesis 35:7, ESV)
​

Here the Hebrew verb "revealed" is plural, hence: "the-gods were revealed". A NET Bible note claims that the Authorized Version wrongly translates: "God appeared unto him".[15] This is one of several instances where the Bible uses plural verbs with the name elohim.[16][17]

in this article, it's seems that the christians (not you ) whom change the concept of "Elohim", to fix the corrupted context , to be acceptible in the meaning .

SO tell me godobeyer, are saying that the christians are right in that there is not one god but three like they insist, being the Elohim is a plural word?
because you do know that if elohim is a plural word meaning multiple gods, then the Qu'ran is wrong too.

 

[Godobeyer]

SO tell me godobeyer, are saying that the christians are right in that there is not one god but three like they insist, being the Elohim is a plural word?
because you do know that if elohim is a plural word meaning multiple gods, then the Qu'ran is wrong too.

I will tell you Rakhel , my point not the plural , i know Elohim is plural of respect of Eloah , i guess this case (of plural of respect ) is exist in Quran .

My problem is how a name of God (Elohim) , you said it's refer in that verse , an Angel not God !!!!
Elohim is not a name of Angel , it's a name of God .
how to fix the context of that verse , claim it's talking about Jacob(pbuh) fought Angel , but indeed the verse talking about Jacob fought God !!!!

 

[Godobeyer]

Only if there was a guy in the first place. first girl could have written abundant love poetry about a fictitious lover, just like the other girls in her neighborhood. when some of the other girls in her neighborhood kicked her out, she still kept writing her poems, not only that, but she also made progress in the plot. in her plot, the promise the lover made to her was never broken. but like in any passionate relationship their love was full of challenges and storms.
BTW, this works whether the lover is fictitious or not. and nowhere in this girl poetry did her lover ever made the same promises to other girls.

leave the girls alone
i want to ask you a question , about your title and your religion ,
in the title ; you are jewish
and the religion you are ; atheist

what i understand know that your mother is jewish but you atheist ?
if yes , that mean you atheist , disgree with all the jewish religion except ,this law (mother jewish)

 

[Flankerl]

some respect

Nope I have no respect for people who believe in 19th/20th century antisemitic scapegoats.

the dirty mind had always dirty mouth , which of course post dirty insults .

Hahahaha

i wounder that insult if was for the Isreali soldier or for me ?

There wasnt even an insult in that quote.

they syrian army was not kill the innocents for no reason as some israeli army do by their planes , ah it's ''a promiss reason " to sacfice more Muslim innocents to applicate it .

Ah yes the brave syrian army. We can see how brave they are right now in Syria. Awesome!

Childern of Israel , mentioned 40 times in Quran , you are so luck
Its all just lessons for us ,about how GOD TREAT YOU AND YOU TREAT HIM .
He sent many messangers and Prophets to you , but some times try to kill them and some times disobey them , and all the time edit His Books .
that why he warning/promiss you in the Torah that He will provoke you by foolish nation (we the arabs )

And now he sent you.

Russia was named after the Rus people. Who, btw, weren't even Russian but Swedish.

This is also very interesting. Saw a documentary about it half a year ago.

 

[Caladan]

what i understand know that your mother is jewish but you atheist ?
if yes , that mean you atheist , disgree with all the jewish religion except ,this law (mother jewish)

It means that I agree with Judaism, and with Jewish history of which I am part of, with the exception of supernatural doctrines. to be honest I think that many Jews feel and believe the same way, but we may use slightly different labels.
we cannot allow ourselves to view Biblical narratives in literal way in the face of modern archaeology, modern science, and modern culture. also, we cannot enforce on ourselves anachronistic customs that prevent us from living a full modern and progressive life.
as you may or may not know. the Jews have been a nation and a people, and Judaism has been one aspect of this cultural experience. Jews are united by various cultural traits, religion being only one of them.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I will tell you Rakhel , my point not the plural , i know Elohim is plural of respect of Eloah , i guess this case (of plural of respect ) is exist in Quran .

My problem is how a name of God (Elohim) , you said it's refer in that verse , an Angel not God !!!!
Elohim is not a name of Angel , it's a name of God .
how to fix the context of that verse , claim it's talking about Jacob(pbuh) fought Angel , but indeed the verse talking about Jacob fought God !!!!

Clearly the point of the story is lost on you. I geuss your also unable to comprehend such things as foreshadowing or irony.

And how did this thread turn into this? You can receive many explanations, from a kabbalistic to orthodox, Jewish to Christian, etc. But what's it got to do with a religious excuse for Zionism?

 

[Godobeyer]

It means that I agree with Judaism, and with Jewish history of which I am part of, with the exception of supernatural doctrines. to be honest I think that many Jews feel and believe the same way, but we may use slightly different labels.
we cannot allow ourselves to view Biblical narratives in literal way in the face of modern archaeology, modern science, and modern culture. also, we cannot enforce on ourselves anachronistic customs that prevent us from living a full modern and progressive life.
as you may or may not now. the Jews have been a nation and a people, and Judaism has been one aspect of this cultural experience. Jews are united by various cultural traits, religion being only one of them.

you mean that you are jewish but don't believe in such things ?
can you give us exempleof supernatural doctrines , that you don't believe ?
that's really weird and rare situation ,i never see something like that before , you are a special case, to have two way of life , Jewish and atheist , you defend for jewish and you defend for atheist (binaire point of view) !!!!
I wounder if there is Christains atheists here too ?

 

[Rakhel]

"Wrestle with G-d" does not necessarily mean he physically wrestled with G-d.
One simple cannot wrestle with G-d. It is impossible.
However, one can wrestle with, or question, the idea of G-d, his commandments, or even his very words.
This is something a Jew does everyday. It has allowed our faith in who and what we are grow stronger each and every day.

 

[Shermana]

Jacob was definitely wrestling with an Angel. Can you find a single link that says Jacob was wrestling with G-d himself?

Jacob Wrestling with the Angel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hosea 12:4 uses "Malek", should be the end of the argument right there.

וָיָּ֤שַׂר אֶל־ מַלְאָךְ֙ וַיֻּכָ֔ל בָּכָ֖ה וַיִּתְחַנֶּן־ לֹ֑ו בֵּֽית־ אֵל֙ יִמְצָאֶ֔נּוּ וְשָׁ֖ם יְדַבֵּ֥ר עִמָּֽנוּ׃

New International Version (©1984)
He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there--New Living Translation (©2007)
Yes, he wrestled with the angel and won. He wept and pleaded for a blessing from him. There at Bethel he met God face to face, and God spoke to him--
English Standard Version (©2001)
He strove with the angel and prevailed; he wept and sought his favor. He met God at Bethel, and there God spoke with us—
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;

So yeah, it was an Angel. The word "El" can mean "god", as well as "Elohim" even, which can refer to spirits, such as when the Witch of Endor says she saw an Elohim when summoning Samuel's Soul. You can also see in the Septuagint Psalm 8:5, Elohim is translated as Angels. Angels are in fact called "gods". This however is not Polytheism but Henotheism, as in Psalm 136:2 the Most High is called "god of the gods".

 

[Levite]

Good God, what an unbelievable cluster **** this thread turned into.... There really just is no talking about Israel, is there?


opcorn:

 

[Rakhel]

Good God, what an unbelievable cluster f*** this thread turned into.... There really just is no talking about Israel, is there?


opcorn:

Which is what makes it a good thing it was moved, huh?

 

[Godobeyer]

"Wrestle with G-d" does not necessarily mean he physically wrestled with G-d.
One simple cannot wrestle with G-d. It is impossible.
However, one can wrestle with, or question, the idea of G-d, his commandments, or even his very words.
This is something a Jew does everyday. It has allowed our faith in who and what we are grow stronger each and every day.

the word God (Elohim) , mentioned 3 times , which mean it's confirmation .

this is from my thread at your DIR forum
ויותר יעקב לבדו ויאבק איש עמו עד עלות השחר׃ וירא כי לא יכל לו ויגע בכף ירכו ותקע כף ירך יעקב בהאבקו עמו׃ ויאמר שלחני כי עלה השחר ויאמר לא אשלחך כי אם ברכתני׃ ויאמר אליו מה שמך ויאמר יעקב׃ ויאמר לא יעקב יאמר עוד שמך כי אם ישראל כי שרית עם אלהים ועם אנשים ותוכל׃ וישאל יעקב ויאמר הגידה נא שמך ויאמר למה זה תשאל לשמי ויברך אתו שם׃ ויקרא יעקב שם המקום פניאל כי ראיתי אלהים פנים אל פנים ותנצל נפשי׃
And Yakov remained, alone; and a man wrestled with him until the dawn broke. And he saw that he could not defeat him, so he struck him in the hollow of his thigh, and he injured the hollow of Yakov's thigh as he wrestled with him. But he said, "Let me go, for dawn has broken." But he said, "I shall not let you go unless you bless me." And he said to him "What is your name," and he said, "Yakov." And he said, "They shall not call you Yakov any more, but rather Yisra'el (Struggles With God), because you have struggled with God and with men and you have prevailed. And Yakov asked him, "Tell me your name, please." And he said, "Why would you ask for my name?" And he blessed him there. And Yakov called the place Peni'el (God's Face), "Because I have met God face to face, and my life was spared."


in your transtation too it's mean God (not Angel ) , that mean it's in Hebrew (Elohim) is mean God , and in english it's mean God , and other langauge it's mean God , and you came tell me no it's mean angel !!!

 

[HiddenDjinn]

the word God (Elohim) , mentioned 3 times , which mean it's confirmation .

this is from my thread at your DIR forum
ויותר יעקב לבדו ויאבק איש עמו עד עלות השחר׃ וירא כי לא יכל לו ויגע בכף ירכו ותקע כף ירך יעקב בהאבקו עמו׃ ויאמר שלחני כי עלה השחר ויאמר לא אשלחך כי אם ברכתני׃ ויאמר אליו מה שמך ויאמר יעקב׃ ויאמר לא יעקב יאמר עוד שמך כי אם ישראל כי שרית עם אלהים ועם אנשים ותוכל׃ וישאל יעקב ויאמר הגידה נא שמך ויאמר למה זה תשאל לשמי ויברך אתו שם׃ ויקרא יעקב שם המקום פניאל כי ראיתי אלהים פנים אל פנים ותנצל נפשי׃
And Yakov remained, alone; and a man wrestled with him until the dawn broke. And he saw that he could not defeat him, so he struck him in the hollow of his thigh, and he injured the hollow of Yakov's thigh as he wrestled with him. But he said, "Let me go, for dawn has broken." But he said, "I shall not let you go unless you bless me." And he said to him "What is your name," and he said, "Yakov." And he said, "They shall not call you Yakov any more, but rather Yisra'el (Struggles With God), because you have struggled with God and with men and you have prevailed. And Yakov asked him, "Tell me your name, please." And he said, "Why would you ask for my name?" And he blessed him there. And Yakov called the place Peni'el (God's Face), "Because I have met God face to face, and my life was spared."


in your transtation too it's mean God (not Angel ) , that mean it's in Hebrew (Elohim) is mean God , and in english it's mean God , and other langauge it's mean God , and you came tell me no it's mean angel !!!

Yeah, I'm just going to remind you of your inability to read in context and your absolute ignorance of Hebrew.

 

[Rakhel]

look, I am done arguing with you. you have been told many many[b/] times that words, even within Judaism have more than one meaning and yet you refuse to see or even to understand this. you have your mind set on the fact that all Jews don't know their own language.
So I am done with you on this forum. Have fun with your quest.

 

[Zion4ever]

To Rabbit , See this here rotter
may this help you in your research .. Good Luck

 

[JacobEzra.]

Good God, what an unbelievable cluster f*** this thread turned into.... There really just is no talking about Israel, is there?


opcorn:

Of course not. These types of threads always turn out to be very big and messy.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I always find it distasteful to reduce such horror to be propaganda. Sadly its the norm for every side.

 

[Zion4ever]

I always find it distasteful to reduce such horror to be propaganda. Sadly its the norm for every side.

Unfortunately, this is the truth