palestine is for Jews or arabs ?

[Godobeyer]

Maybe he is confused. He doesn't understand how being Jewish is more then just religion. And that it is possible a Jew can be an atheist.

you know why , because you don't considerate it (judiasm) a religion ,you considerate it religion/race (mother of jewish ,is jewish) .
I guess , and it's maybe i am correct, that you are the only religion in the world, whom considerate the atheist, is religious (jewish).
the atheist never be a religious in any religion for my opinion .

 

[Kerr]

you know why , because you don't considerate it (judiasm) a religion ,you considerate it religion/race (mother of jewish ,is jewish) .
I guess , and it's maybe i am correct, that you are the only religion in the world, whom considerate the atheist, is religious (jewish).

I think its more a matter of cultural heritage then "race". To my understanding, being a jew has both the cultural aspect and the religious one. Which means you can be a jew without being religious.

the atheist never be a religious in any religion for my opinion .

No offence, but I think you are wrong. I am absolutely sure that religions doesnt have to have deities, even if I cannot think of any example at the moment.

 

[Godobeyer]

I think its more a matter of cultural heritage then "race". To my understanding, being a jew has both the cultural aspect and the religious one. Which means you can be a jew without being religious.

judiasm is religion , the religion of course have a way of living , this way of living called culture
Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

did you thing that the Islam or christainity ,is culture or religion ?

No offence, but I think you are wrong. I am absolutely sure that religions doesnt have to have deities, even if I cannot think of any example at the moment.

if you know a christian or muslim ...etc , and he/she is atheist just informe me

 

[Caladan]

judiasm is religion , the religion of course have a way of living , this way of living called culture
Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

did you thing that the Islam or christainity ,is culture or religion ?

if you know a christian or muslim ...etc , and he/she is atheist just informe me

You simply need to educate yourself to something several of us have told you before, but you ignore.
The Jewish people have been a historical people and a nation, they have been treated as such by themselves and by the rest of the world. so its your opinion against the rest of the world and against history.

 

[Godobeyer]

You simply need to educate yourself to something several of us have told you before, but you ignore.
The Jewish people have been a historical people and a nation, they have been treated as such by themselves and by the rest of the world. so its your opinion against the rest of the world and against history.

on contrary , you claim is against the world and history , i am talking about the religious people on general .
i never ever heard that a christians or Muslim or any other religion , is atheist .

historical people and nation , that mean race .

 

[Kerr]

judiasm is religion , the religion of course have a way of living , this way of living called culture
Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

did you thing that the Islam or christainity ,is culture or religion ?

You do realize that the link you gave me actually confirms what I said? In short it said that judaism is the religion of the jewish people. Christianity and Islam are religions, just like Judaism. But being a jew is about more then the religion. At least that is the impression I get from what Caladan said. Since he is a jew we should maybe listen to him.

if you know a christian or muslim ...etc , and he/she is atheist just informe me

I didnt mean the Abrahamic religions .

 

[HiddenDjinn]

No offence, but I think you are wrong. I am absolutely sure that religions doesnt have to have deities, even if I cannot think of any example at the moment.

Let's see, "atheist" religions:
Satanism(LaVeyan)
Certain forms of Buddhism.
There's two off the top of my head.

 

[Rakhel]

Jainism doesn't have any deities either, if I'm correct.

 

[Levite]

hi Levite
what mean by Israel the state or the Prophet ? or both ?

I think that you know that Israel was more than just the name of the prophet Jacob. It was the name passed on to his children, collectively, and the people they became. Since our earliest days, the Jewish People have been known as b'nai Yisra'el (the Children of Israel) and as am Yisra'el (the People Israel), just as the land has been known as eretz Yisra'el (the Land of Israel). Regardless of what non-Jews have called us, or called the land, those have been the names that we use for ourselves and our land for thousands of years. They are found all over the Tanakh, and all over Rabbinic literature.

It is a completely natural and understandable result of Zionism's desire for the Jewish People to have a homeland in their ancestral land that the Jewish state that got founded there be named Israel. It would have been remarkable had it been called anything else.

 

[Kerr]

Let's see, "atheist" religions:
Satanism(LaVeyan)
Certain forms of Buddhism.
There's two off the top of my head.

Yeah, this is what I meant. Thanks .

 

[thau]

The Jewish people have more universal legitimate claims to the land called "Palestine" than any other people --- none of which requre any mention in Holy Scripture to justify it.

Why must you have Biblical passages to support their claim?

 

[Godobeyer]

I think that you know that Israel was more than just the name of the prophet Jacob. It was the name passed on to his children, collectively, and the people they became. Since our earliest days, the Jewish People have been known as b'nai Yisra'el (the Children of Israel) and as am Yisra'el (the People Israel), just as the land has been known as eretz Yisra'el (the Land of Israel). Regardless of what non-Jews have called us, or called the land, those have been the names that we use for ourselves and our land for thousands of years. They are found all over the Tanakh, and all over Rabbinic literature.

It is a completely natural and understandable result of Zionism's desire for the Jewish People to have a homeland in their ancestral land that the Jewish state that got founded there be named Israel. It would have been remarkable had it been called anything else.

In the Quran , God called you "bani israel" , which mean "childern of Israel "
it's refer to Israel the prophet , not the Israel the country .
but I wounder why you used his name to called a country (for what reason), and why exactly him(Israel) not Moses or Abrahim or any of ours Prophets ?

 

[Godobeyer]

Let's see, "atheist" religions:
Satanism(LaVeyan)
Certain forms of Buddhism.
There's two off the top of my head.

thanks for this info
that's mean caladran had two religions ?

 

[Levite]

In the Quran , God called you "bani israel" , which mean "childern of Israel "
it's refer to Israel the prophet , not the Israel the country .
but I wounder why you used his name to called a country (for what reason), and why exactly him(Israel) not Moses or Abrahim or any of ours Prophets ?

Because the Jewish People are the descendants of the twelve sons of Israel: not the descendants of Moses. And since Abraham was the father of many nations, not only the Jewish people, we do not chiefly call ourselves by his name, although we revere him as our first ancestor.

By the time that the Quran was written, by the way, we had been calling ourselves am Yisra'el (the People Israel) and calling our land eretz Yisra'el (the Land of Israel) for well over a thousand years....

 

[Caladan]

In the Quran , God called you "bani israel" , which mean "childern of Israel "
it's refer to Israel the prophet , not the Israel the country .
but I wounder why you used his name to called a country (for what reason), and why exactly him(Israel) not Moses or Abrahim or any of ours Prophets ?

It refers to Israel, the historical kingdom, and the people. Children of Israel is a name of a nation, and of a people. its really not hard to see why modern Jews chose to call their country Israel. it was the name chosen out of several possible names for the newly born (1948) state, other names such as Judea and Zion were considered and rejected. all these names, like Israel carry historical linkage to the Jewish people.
you still have not answered the question, what would you call the State of Israel?

 

[Godobeyer]

It refers to Israel, the historical kingdom, and the people. Children of Israel is a name of a nation, and of a people. its really not hard to see why modern Jews chose to call their country Israel. it was the name chosen out of several possible names for the newly born (1948) state, other names such as Judea and Zion were considered and rejected. all these names, like Israel carry historical linkage to the Jewish people.

I don't agree with you it's refer to Isreal (Jacob) the Prophet .
Israel never be a king ,He is a Prophet .

you still have not answered the question, what would you call the State of Israel?

the Colonist of Phalestine and some other arabs lands .

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, they translate "Elohim" both to "The G-d" and "god".

I'm not a huge fan of Strong's, but they at least admit this in this case.

Strong's Hebrew: 430. ???????? (elohim) -- God, god

And I meant 1 Samuel, not 2. 28:13

וַיֹּ֨אמֶר לָ֥הּ הַמֶּ֛לֶךְ אַל־ תִּֽירְאִ֖י כִּ֣י מָ֣ה רָאִ֑ית וַתֹּ֤אמֶר הָֽאִשָּׁה֙ אֶל־ שָׁא֔וּל אֱלֹהִ֥ים רָאִ֖יתִי עֹלִ֥ים מִן־ הָאָֽרֶץ׃

New International Version (©1984)
The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground."

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Don't be afraid!" the king told her. "What do you see?" "I see a god coming up out of the earth," she said.
English Standard Version (©2001)
The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth."

as I told before, the "Elohim" , you make from it mutli services !!! , it's a very important (value) word , should not had these mutli sens .

and i found this verse
1About that time the Philistines mustered their armies for another war with Israel. King Achish told David, “You and your men will be expected to join me in battle.”

Philistines ,Israel refer to whom?

 

[Godobeyer]

it is rather interesting how context concerning Hebrew grammar means everything. For you see, in Genesis 32, if one were to take each word and translate it word for word, one would be forced to come to the conclusion that Jacob is god. after all he said he was in god's camp and was able to tell the angels what to do.

Now what mere mortal can do this?

ב וְיַעֲקֹב, הָלַךְ לְדַרְכּוֹ; וַיִּפְגְּעוּ-בוֹ, מַלְאֲכֵי אֱלֹהִים. 2 And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.
ג וַיֹּאמֶר יַעֲקֹב כַּאֲשֶׁר רָאָם, מַחֲנֵה אֱלֹהִים זֶה; וַיִּקְרָא שֵׁם-הַמָּקוֹם הַהוּא, מַחֲנָיִם. {פ} 3 And Jacob said when he saw them: 'This is God's camp.' And he called the name of that place Mahanaim. {P}
ד וַיִּשְׁלַח יַעֲקֹב מַלְאָכִים לְפָנָיו, אֶל-עֵשָׂו אָחִיו, אַרְצָה שֵׂעִיר, שְׂדֵה אֱדוֹם. 4 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the field of Edom.

This word מַלְאֲכֵי when translated means Angel and in verse 2, that translation applies. However when you look at verse 4, מַלְאָכִים the same word is used, yet in this verse it means messenger.
Sure an angel can be a messenger and in most cases is, but does this mean that Jacob could control angels? absolutely not. The word had multiple meanings.

thanks for this horrible exemple , it's make the Torah for me , like a jungle in the earthquake

of course it's clrealy mean that Jacob (pbuh) sent messangers or angels , the ancient translators and Google translator, both translate it jacob (pbuh) sent angels .

this is the translation of the word מַלְאָכִים : http://translate.google.com/?hl=fr&t...B4%D7%99%D7%9D

and this is the translation of מַלְאֲכֵי אֱלֹהִים :
http://translate.google.com/?hl=fr&t...B4%D7%99%D7%9D

 

[Caladan]

I don't agree with you it's refer to Isreal (Jacob) the Prophet .
Israel never be a king ,He is a Prophet .

No, no. it refers to a historical Kingdom and a people, called 'Israel'.

the Colonist of Phalestine and some other arabs lands .

So, in this regard. you are the least qualified person to discuss the name of the modern state of Israel. since apparently you have no desire to understand its history.
its a shame that many Muslims show these sentiments. as the People of Israel, its Kings, and its prophets, are all an essential part of Islamic tradition, which many Muslims try to repress it seems.

 

[Godobeyer]

No, no. it refers to a historical Kingdom and a people, called 'Israel'.

ok who was the king ?

So, in this regard. you are the least qualified person to discuss the name of the modern state of Israel. since apparently you have no desire to understand its history.
its a shame that many Muslims show these sentiments. as the People of Israel, its Kings, and its prophets, are all an essential part of Islamic tradition, which many Muslims try to repress it seems.

it's seem that this thread turn to politic again
the history that land if for the Palestinies and Jews and other genders of human ,
in fact that you make it's race issue and religous
race : by occupat the land and kill palestine and destuction their houses
religous : to make as conflict between Islam ,and judiasm .

the jews their are from 1948 occupat and kill the arabs by the name of history land , and promiss...etc
i wounder how you pray God by the blood of the innocets !!!

i have a question for you ,do you agree to this ?