palestine is for Jews or arabs ?

[Tarheeler]

Good God, what an unbelievable cluster f*** this thread turned into.... There really just is no talking about Israel, is there?


opcorn:

What gets me is the lack of knowledge of modern history; particularity the events leading up to WW2 and the creation of the State of Israel.

 

[YmirGF]

Yeah, I'm just going to remind you of your inability to read in context and your absolute ignorance of Hebrew.

It is, however, representative of why there is no lasting peace in the region.

 

[Godobeyer]

Yeah, I'm just going to remind you of your inability to read in context and your absolute ignorance of Hebrew.

it's not inability , and it's not context ,why ?
because if that context in hebrew correct and knowing , the the older transtalors of original one from hebrew to other language , wrote "angels" instead of "God" , but it's not happened , it's tranlate to GOD .:clap i clap to my self btw .
I believe my eyes or i believe you ? take a look to the verse above

the context is just a "reason" to fix the error , because it's never happened that Human fought God , or ever angel in shape of human .
and if we suppose ,there was a fight the angel won not human
and i wounder if there is a reason of that fight ?

 

[Godobeyer]

Jacob was definitely wrestling with an Angel. Can you find a single link that says Jacob was wrestling with G-d himself?

Jacob Wrestling with the Angel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hosea 12:4 uses "Malek", should be the end of the argument right there.

וָיָּ֤שַׂר אֶל־ מַלְאָךְ֙ וַיֻּכָ֔ל בָּכָ֖ה וַיִּתְחַנֶּן־ לֹ֑ו בֵּֽית־ אֵל֙ יִמְצָאֶ֔נּוּ וְשָׁ֖ם יְדַבֵּ֥ר עִמָּֽנוּ׃

So yeah, it was an Angel. The word "El" can mean "god", as well as "Elohim" even, which can refer to spirits, such as when the Witch of Endor says she saw an Elohim when summoning Samuel's Soul. You can also see in the Septuagint Psalm 8:5, Elohim is translated as Angels. Angels are in fact called "gods". This however is not Polytheism but Henotheism, as in Psalm 136:2 the Most High is called "god of the gods".

wrong , because Eloah , it's not a mean one angel , Elohim is the plural of respect of God , not plural of count .

see from this link
Names of God in Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Eloah

The Hebrew form Eloah (אלוה&#1468, which appears to be a singular feminine form of Elohim, is comparatively rare, occurring only in poetry and prose (in the Book of Job, 41 times). What is probably the same divine name is found in Arabic (Ilah as singular "a god", as opposed to Allah meaning "The God" or "God", "al" in "al-Lah" being the definite article "the") and in Aramaic (Elaha).
Eloah or Elah may be considered cognates of Allah due to the common Semitic root name for (an or the) creator God, as in El (deity) of ancient Near Eastern cosmology. Allah (literally, al-ʾilāh) is also the Arabic name for the God of Abraham in general, as it is used by Arab Christians and traditionally, Mizrahi Jews. Its Aramaic form, ʼAlâhâ ܐܲܠܵܗܵܐ in use by modern Assyrian Christians, is taken from the Biblical Aramaic ʼĔlāhā ܐܠܗܐ and was the everyday word for God at the time of the Roman occupation.
This unusual singular form of Elohim is used in six places for heathen deities (examples: 2 Chronicles 32:15; Daniel 11:37, 38. The normal Elohim form is also used in the plural a few times to refer to multiple entities other than God, either for gods or images (Exodus 9:1, 12:12, 20:3; and so forth) or for one god (Exodus 32:1; Genesis 31:30, 32; and elsewhere). In the great majority of cases both are used as names of the One God of Israel.


the context (angels=Elohim that you want stuck it in the hebrew , is just for justify the Horribal error that found in the Torah .

 

[Shermana]

Okay, so you're saying that Hosea 12:4 is wrong?

And perhaps you missed what I said about the Witch of Endor calling Samuels's soul an "Elohim" too?

 

[Godobeyer]

look, I am done arguing with you. you have been told many many[b/] times that words, even within Judaism have more than one meaning and yet you refuse to see or even to understand this. you have your mind set on the fact that all Jews don't know their own language.
So I am done with you on this forum. Have fun with your quest.

No problem, i hope you will change your mind and back , Rakhel

look the hebrew langauge is revive langauge , in revive langage to change the context is very easy , for that i refer to other langage i found it's the same the context is "God"

List of revived languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Godobeyer]

caladan ,btw if an atheist insult the jews , what you will tell him , stop i am jewish ?http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/members/caladan-15962.html

 

[Godobeyer]

Okay, so you're saying that Hosea 12:4 is wrong?

And perhaps you missed what I said about the Witch of Endor calling Samuels's soul an "Elohim" too?

yeah , God name had multi services
this is how you fix the errors of the Torah ?

 

[Shermana]

Another thing, G-d says "I am not a man".

Next up, it says that "The man" was unable to take down Jacob. G-d is now unable to take down Jacob?

When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.

So with what we know about ELohim meaning "god" and "Spirit" such as with the case of the Witch of Endor, it becomes clear that the translators who say that Jacob wrestled with G-d are incorrect, and that it's "a god" (and angels are called gods) that Jacob wrestles with, as testified by Hosea 12:4. The problem is that most translations are too afraid to admit that that "El" and "Elohim" can mean "god" in the lower case, but have no problem translating Psalm 136:2 as "god of the gods". Divine beings are called "gods", but they are not THE god who gets the article.

It's a tricky and controversial issue I'll say that at least.

 

[Godobeyer]

Good God, what an unbelievable cluster f*** this thread turned into.... There really just is no talking about Israel, is there?


opcorn:

hi Levite
what mean by Israel the state or the Prophet ? or both ?

 

[Caladan]

caladan ,btw if an atheist insult the jews , what you will tell him , stop i am jewish ?http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/members/caladan-15962.html

Can I ask you a question? why are you so obsessed with insults and insult making?
through your time on this forum, I have seen you lose your temper whenever someone disagrees with you. also you have gone out of your way to insult others, and took great offence when you thought others have insulted you.
as someone who already insulted Jews, why do you care if an atheist insults the Jews? do you think I should have a prepared reaction for anyone who has something negative to say about Jews?

 

[JacobEzra.]

hi Levite
what mean by Israel the state or the Prophet ? or both ?

Most people use context to understand what is referred to. Wether land, person or group.

I can understand how you are confused. Context is a very hard thing to take into consideration

 

[Godobeyer]

Another thing, G-d says "I am not a man".

Next up, it says that "The man" was unable to take down Jacob. G-d is now unable to take down Jacob?



So with what we know about ELohim meaning "god" and "Spirit" such as with the case of the Witch of Endor, it becomes clear that the translators who say that Jacob wrestled with G-d are incorrect, and that it's "a god" (and angels are called gods) that Jacob wrestles with, as testified by Hosea 12:4. The problem is that most translations are too afraid to admit that that "El" and "Elohim" can mean "god" in the lower case, but have no problem translating Psalm 136:2 as "god of the gods". Divine beings are called "gods", but they are not THE god who gets the article.

It's a tricky and controversial issue I'll say that at least.

ah to make it's correct you change the context of the name of God to angel ?
you make laugh when you said "Elohim " could be use as "God meaning
it's over , you leave/release the the meaning of God and change it to angel for that verse :areyoucra

it's old tranlators , they know the right context
as i told the hebrew is revive langauge , in this case it's could be playing with context , and fix the errors of the
any way look at the tranlation of word elohim in hebrew to english and word of angel to hebrew .


the word " Angel" translation from hebrew to english :
Google Traduction

the word "Elohim" god in hebrew , from Hebrew to english אלוהים :
Google Traduction

 

[Shermana]

Okay, so you believe that 2 Samuel and Hosea are both incorrect in how to perceive ancient Hebrew grammar, while ignoring the issue of Psalm 136:2 as well, quite presumptious I'd say.

 

[Godobeyer]

maybe because i was insulted too much

through your time on this forum, I have seen you lose your temper whenever someone disagrees with you. also you have gone out of your way to insult others, and took great offence when you thought others have insulted you.

all of us make reaction when being insutled , i am don't want to insutl or be insulted .

as someone who already insulted Jews, why do you care if an atheist insults the Jews? do you think I should have a prepared reaction for anyone who has something negative to say about Jews?

it's just a question came to my mind , i say if he agrue with atheist (as him ) what he will do ? i am just wounder how you reaction with atheist like you if he insult the jews ??

 

[JacobEzra.]

Can I ask you a question? why are you so obsessed with insults and insult making?
through your time on this forum, I have seen you lose your temper whenever someone disagrees with you. also you have gone out of your way to insult others, and took great offence when you thought others have insulted you.
as someone who already insulted Jews, why do you care if an atheist insults the Jews? do you think I should have a prepared reaction for anyone who has something negative to say about Jews?

Maybe he is confused. He doesn't understand how being Jewish is more then just religion. And that it is possible a Jew can be an atheist.

 

[Godobeyer]

Okay, so you believe that 2 Samuel and Hosea are both incorrect in how to perceive ancient Hebrew grammar, while ignoring the issue of Psalm 136:2 as well, quite presumptious I'd say.

ancient hebrew grammar , which used by the ancient translators , which they translate the word "Elohim" to God , to all the language , not just in english (not angel as you claim ) .

 

[Shermana]

ancient hebrew grammar , which used by the ancient translators , which they translate the word "Elohim" to God , to all the language , not just in english (not angel as you claim ) .

Yes, they translate "Elohim" both to "The G-d" and "god".

I'm not a huge fan of Strong's, but they at least admit this in this case.

Strong's Hebrew: 430. ???????? (elohim) -- God, god

Plural of 'elowahh; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative -- angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

And I meant 1 Samuel, not 2. 28:13

וַיֹּ֨אמֶר לָ֥הּ הַמֶּ֛לֶךְ אַל־ תִּֽירְאִ֖י כִּ֣י מָ֣ה רָאִ֑ית וַתֹּ֤אמֶר הָֽאִשָּׁה֙ אֶל־ שָׁא֔וּל אֱלֹהִ֥ים רָאִ֖יתִי עֹלִ֥ים מִן־ הָאָֽרֶץ׃

New International Version (©1984)
The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground."

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Don't be afraid!" the king told her. "What do you see?" "I see a god coming up out of the earth," she said.
English Standard Version (©2001)
The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth."

 

[Rakhel]

it is rather interesting how context concerning Hebrew grammar means everything. For you see, in Genesis 32, if one were to take each word and translate it word for word, one would be forced to come to the conclusion that Jacob is god. after all he said he was in god's camp and was able to tell the angels what to do.

Now what mere mortal can do this?

ב וְיַעֲקֹב, הָלַךְ לְדַרְכּוֹ; וַיִּפְגְּעוּ-בוֹ, מַלְאֲכֵי אֱלֹהִים. 2 And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.
ג וַיֹּאמֶר יַעֲקֹב כַּאֲשֶׁר רָאָם, מַחֲנֵה אֱלֹהִים זֶה; וַיִּקְרָא שֵׁם-הַמָּקוֹם הַהוּא, מַחֲנָיִם. {פ} 3 And Jacob said when he saw them: 'This is God's camp.' And he called the name of that place Mahanaim. {P}
ד וַיִּשְׁלַח יַעֲקֹב מַלְאָכִים לְפָנָיו, אֶל-עֵשָׂו אָחִיו, אַרְצָה שֵׂעִיר, שְׂדֵה אֱדוֹם. 4 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the field of Edom.

This word מַלְאֲכֵי when translated means Angel and in verse 2, that translation applies. However when you look at verse 4, מַלְאָכִים the same word is used, yet in this verse it means messenger.
Sure an angel can be a messenger and in most cases is, but does this mean that Jacob could control angels? absolutely not. The word had multiple meanings.

 

[Kerr]

caladan ,btw if an atheist insult the jews , what you will tell him , stop i am jewish ?

In what way does it matter if the person who insults jews is an atheist or not? Jerks are jerks, they can be atheists or theists or whatever. They can be Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, you name it. So it would just be a jerk doing what jerks do best, being a jerk, so whatever faith that jerk has is less important then his jerkyness.

And yes, I did use the word "jerk" that many times on purpose .