Palestinians under attack

[metis]

I think they intentionally provoked Israel to get this response.

What other point would there be to just endlessly shoot rockets that weren't doing anything (although one Israeli was killed)?

They wanted Israel to have an incursion. They want lots of dead arabs in gaza so they can use it for propaganda.

In a way Israel played into their hands, but they had no other choice.

I believe Hamas has done this for at least two major reasons. One of them is that their popularity has been diminishing in Gaza as it has become more and more apparent that they have spent most of their efforts not on helping their own people but on planning attacks on Israel. Most of the cement sent to them by aid was spent on fortifying their tunnels versus construction projects for their own populace.

Secondly, the Egyptian leadership has cut off funneling their supplies from Iran, which creates a supply problem for Hamas as far as weapons are concerned. This is why Hamas has demanded the end of the "blockade" so they can get their weapons by sea.

 

[Levite]

How Hamas uses its tunnels to kill and capture Israeli soldiers - The Washington Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/23/world/middleeast/gaza-israel-hamas-tunnels.html?_r=0
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/179964/inside-the-hamas-tunnel-terror-network
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/180007/concrete-facts-about-hamas

Obviously, I'm not surprised at the tactic of creating tunnels to cross the border to ambush and kill not only soldiers but innocent civilians as well-- that's only to be expected from terrorists.

What does stun me is this. These tunnels took tens of millions of dollars and an unthinkable amount of construction material to create. One estimate conservatively postulates that at least 800,000 tons of concrete have been used, which is enough to create multiple mammoth skyscrapers or mega-stadiums. One can only guess at the other materials-- steel, wiring, etc.

Hamas is supposed to be the government in Gaza, yes? So what kind of government uses millions of dollars and vast amounts of building materials to create tunnels to attack random people or maybe kidnap the occasional soldier, rather than building people homes, better streets and sidewalks, schools, hospitals-- perhaps if nothing else, bomb shelters? Even if little actual building were done, would those millions of dollars not have been spent easing the lives of the citizens of Gaza, rather than making tunnels for terrorists?

As if it were not enough that Hamas abuses ambulances to carry weaponry, houses rockets at UN schools, uses its own populace as human shields, and launches attacks from the midst of civilian areas, here they apparently were able to obtain these huge resources both literal and financial, and they p***** it all away on these tunnels. And yet people in the international community and online are still verbally coming to their defense.

This makes no sense whatsoever to me. Even if you're an anti-Zionist anti-Semite Jew hater, and you have no problem with terrorists attacking Israel, why would you ever defend a "government" that chooses exorbitant terroristic offensive projects over actually caring for its citizens and trying to make their daily lives better?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think anyone who knows me at all realizes that I abhor war and racism, but one of the things I also abhor are "family" feuds, ...

Such people are no more a coddled part of my family by virtue of being Jewish than is David Duke by virtue of being an American.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If you don't mind, I want to post the article because I really feel that some people should read it as I'm certain some will not click on your link:

Prime Minister Stephen Harper today issued the following statement in response to the situation in Israel:

“The indiscriminate rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel are terrorist acts, for which there is no justification. It is evident that Hamas is deliberately using human shields to further terror in the region.

“Failure by the international community to condemn these reprehensible actions would encourage these terrorists to continue their appalling actions. Canada calls on its allies and partners to recognize that these terrorist acts are unacceptable and that solidarity with Israel is the best way of stopping the conflict.

“Canada is unequivocally behind Israel. We support its right to defend itself, by itself, against these terror attacks, and urge Hamas to immediately cease their indiscriminate attacks on innocent Israeli civilians.

“Canada reiterates its call for the Palestinian government to disarm Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups operating in Gaza, including the Iranian proxy, Palestinian Islamic Jihad.”

- See more at: Statement by the Prime Minister of Canada in response to the situation in Israel | Prime Minister of Canada

Therefore?

 

[beenie]

How does one negotiate when the one side repeated state even in their charter that they want to eliminate Israel and that any Jews in any country are fair game to be killed? Please explain where the compromise is.

Let's say that I live next to you, and I start trying to kill you and your family, and when you ask why I'm doing this I say because I want you gone. How are you going to compromise this out? Maybe if I promise to kill only one of your children, is that OK?

This is not a game that's being played, so we can't just hit reset and start all over again. Which country will just allow itself to be hit time and time again and just ignore it? Hamas is constantly making attempts to kill and kidnap Israelis, so how can this be compromised? Would you accept such assaults where you live?

Get rid of Hamas for starters. Jordan and other neighboring countries should open its borders and help civilians find a livable place to live while Hamas is dealt with. I understand Hamas was elected in, but there is no reason they can't be overturned for putting its citizens in danger, rather than protecting them.

What I find disturbing in this whole discussion is that I, as a Muslim, can speak out against Hamas and its tactics, yet only ONE Jewish member here is able to see that Israel's hands are not squeaky clean in this conflict.

I see fairly, why can't anyone else?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is a reason it's called blind hatred.

 

[Revoltingest]

Get rid of Hamas for starters. Jordan and other neighboring countries should open its borders and help civilians find a livable place to live while Hamas is dealt with. I understand Hamas was elected in, but there is no reason they can't be overturned for putting its citizens in danger, rather than protecting them.

What I find disturbing in this whole discussion is that I, as a Muslim, can speak out against Hamas and its tactics, yet only ONE Jewish member here is able to see that Israel's hands are not squeaky clean in this conflict.

I see fairly, why can't anyone else?

I'm not a fair person. I don't care much that Palestinians have those among them who
commit heinous acts. I don't care much that Israel is too often brutal & thoughtless.
Any solution requires setting aside all this carping about how evil the other is.
They need to focus instead upon fundamentals:
- Israel is here to stay.
- Palestinians are here to stay.
- Each side has its goals, eg, peace, prosperity, liberty, a secure autonomous country.
- At this moment (before things escalate to the point that Iran, Egypt, Pakistan, USA, etc, weigh in with direct military might), Israel is top dog. It has superior firepower, organization, border control, money & foreign support.
- Continuing the same old same old means more violent conflict between 2 sides which cannot defeat the other.

A new approach is needed. Who could impose it...certainly not an outsider. It's unlikely that both sides will simultaneously begin one, so it falls to whichever has great ability to do this. Israel is in the driver's seat, so I expect them find some approach other than endless war. (I'm not letting Palestinians off the hook...I just see less likelihood that a solution will originate with them. Their job will be to cooperate.)
As I said, I'm unfair.

 

[metis]

Get rid of Hamas for starters. Jordan and other neighboring countries should open its borders and help civilians find a livable place to live while Hamas is dealt with. I understand Hamas was elected in, but there is no reason they can't be overturned for putting its citizens in danger, rather than protecting them.

What I find disturbing in this whole discussion is that I, as a Muslim, can speak out against Hamas and its tactics, yet only ONE Jewish member here is able to see that Israel's hands are not squeaky clean in this conflict.

I see fairly, why can't anyone else?

In war, no one is ever squeaky clean. As I posted a while back, I don't have a problem with Palestinians nor Muslems as I have mixed freely with them both here and in Israel. I do have a problem with war as there tends to be far more losers, and even winners are also losers as well, especially the innocent.

The problem becomes how do we get to that point of peace whereas there's no losers? War is war, and it's hell no matter how some may chose to paint it. During any major modern war there always are far more innocent killed than military. During WWII, for example, how many people in Europe died with the bombing that went on there? And yet without the bombing there's no way that the NAZI's could be defeated. This is the same exact problem Israel has, especially since Hamas mingles in with the general populace, launches it missiles, and then hides again within the populace.

I sympathize not only for the Israeli people but also the Palestinians. Yes, there are some of my fellow Jews who don't feel that same way, but as an anthropologist, I don't really see nationalities as being important as they are entirely artificial creations. I'm not a very patriotic person either, btw.

So, I have more questions than answers, but the one thing I am quite certain of is that if Hamas remains in power after this, we'll see much the same in a few years or less as that's been the pattern.

Take care, and thanks for your post.

 

[beenie]

In war, no one is ever squeaky clean. As I posted a while back, I don't have a problem with Palestinians nor Muslems as I have mixed freely with them both here and in Israel. I do have a problem with war as there tends to be far more losers, and even winners are also losers as well, especially the innocent.

The problem becomes how do we get to that point of peace whereas there's no losers? War is war, and it's hell no matter how some may chose to paint it. During any major modern war there always are far more innocent killed than military. During WWII, for example, how many people in Europe died with the bombing that went on there? And yet without the bombing there's no way that the NAZI's could be defeated. This is the same exact problem Israel has, especially since Hamas mingles in with the general populace, launches it missiles, and then hides again within the populace.

I sympathize not only for the Israeli people but also the Palestinians. Yes, there are some of my fellow Jews who don't feel that same way, but as an anthropologist, I don't really see nationalities as being important as they are entirely artificial creations. I'm not a very patriotic person either, btw.

So, I have more questions than answers, but the one thing I am quite certain of is that if Hamas remains in power after this, we'll see much the same in a few years or less as that's been the pattern.

Take care, and thanks for your post.

Thank you, and I also have far more questions than answers, and I agree with you about Hamas remaining in power and the ramifications of such.

 

[beenie]

I'm not a fair person. I don't care much that Palestinians have those among them who
commit heinous acts. I don't care much that Israel is too often brutal & thoughtless.
Any solution requires setting aside all this carping about how evil the other is.
They need to focus instead upon fundamentals:
- Israel is here to stay.
- Palestinians are here to stay.
- Each side has its goals, eg, peace, prosperity, liberty, a secure autonomous country.
- At this moment (before things escalate to the point that Iran, Egypt, Pakistan, USA, etc, weigh in with direct military might), Israel is top dog. It has superior firepower, organization, border control, money & foreign support.
- Continuing the same old same old means more violent conflict between 2 sides which cannot defeat the other.

A new approach is needed. Who could impose it...certainly not an outsider. It's unlikely that both sides will simultaneously begin one, so it falls to whichever has great ability to do this. Israel is in the driver's seat, so I expect them find some approach other than endless war. (I'm not letting Palestinians off the hook...I just see less likelihood that a solution will originate with them. Their job will be to cooperate.)
As I said, I'm unfair.

I agree with this as well.

 

[Moishe3rd]

How Hamas uses its tunnels to kill and capture Israeli soldiers - The Washington Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/23/world/middleeast/gaza-israel-hamas-tunnels.html?_r=0
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/179964/inside-the-hamas-tunnel-terror-network
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/180007/concrete-facts-about-hamas

Obviously, I'm not surprised at the tactic of creating tunnels to cross the border to ambush and kill not only soldiers but innocent civilians as well-- that's only to be expected from terrorists.

What does stun me is this. These tunnels took tens of millions of dollars and an unthinkable amount of construction material to create. One estimate conservatively postulates that at least 800,000 tons of concrete have been used, which is enough to create multiple mammoth skyscrapers or mega-stadiums. One can only guess at the other materials-- steel, wiring, etc.

Hamas is supposed to be the government in Gaza, yes? So what kind of government uses millions of dollars and vast amounts of building materials to create tunnels to attack random people or maybe kidnap the occasional soldier, rather than building people homes, better streets and sidewalks, schools, hospitals-- perhaps if nothing else, bomb shelters? Even if little actual building were done, would those millions of dollars not have been spent easing the lives of the citizens of Gaza, rather than making tunnels for terrorists?

As if it were not enough that Hamas abuses ambulances to carry weaponry, houses rockets at UN schools, uses its own populace as human shields, and launches attacks from the midst of civilian areas, here they apparently were able to obtain these huge resources both literal and financial, and they p***** it all away on these tunnels. And yet people in the international community and online are still verbally coming to their defense.

This makes no sense whatsoever to me. Even if you're an anti-Zionist anti-Semite Jew hater, and you have no problem with terrorists attacking Israel, why would you ever defend a "government" that chooses exorbitant terroristic offensive projects over actually caring for its citizens and trying to make their daily lives better?

Well said.
Unfortunately, the answer is generally going to be: Because Jews are the enemy.
That is the answer based on history.

 

[beenie]

Well said.
Unfortunately, the answer is generally going to be: Because Jews are the enemy.
That is the answer based on history.

Take it somewhere else. Where have I, for one, said that "Jews are the enemy"?

 

[Moishe3rd]

Take it somewhere else. Where have I, for one, said that "Jews are the enemy"?

I don't know. Have you?

So - give me a better answer to the question: "why would you ever defend a "government" that chooses exorbitant terroristic offensive projects over actually caring for its citizens and trying to make their daily lives better?"

 

[beenie]

I don't know. Have you?

So - give me a better answer to the question: "why would you ever defend a "government" that chooses exorbitant terroristic offensive projects over actually caring for its citizens and trying to make their daily lives better?"

Have you bothered to read my posts or are you assuming my position based on the fact I'm Muslim?

If you have read my replies, I don't defend a "government that chooses exorbitant terroristic offensive projects over actually caring for its citizens and trying to make their daily lives better".

I have repeated myself almost to the point of absurdity that if Hamas is using its citizens as human shields and purposely placing civilians in the direct fire of Israeli airstrikes, then they are wrong and they must be stopped. I'm just not certain that collective air strikes is the answer, as Hamas's tactics, while abhorrent, are succeeding at getting world-wide sympathy.

HOWEVER, if you also read my posts, you would see that most, if not all but a very select few Israeli supporters on this forum, will not concede that perhaps there is some blood on Israel's hands too. We could go back and forth for pages about settlements and such, but to be honest, it's futile.

Status quo is not working, something must change, Hamas needs to be overturned, blah, blah, blah... perhaps there is another strategy that could be used to bring about a cease in violence?

I don't know, as I said in another thread, I have far more questions than I do answers. At least I am able to see both sides of the issue though, unlike many others.

 

[columbus]

I'm not a fair person. I don't care much that Palestinians have those among them who
commit heinous acts. I don't care much that Israel is too often brutal & thoughtless.
Any solution requires setting aside all this carping about how evil the other is.
They need to focus instead upon fundamentals:
- Israel is here to stay.
- Palestinians are here to stay.
- Each side has its goals, eg, peace, prosperity, liberty, a secure autonomous country.
- At this moment (before things escalate to the point that Iran, Egypt, Pakistan, USA, etc, weigh in with direct military might), Israel is top dog. It has superior firepower, organization, border control, money & foreign support.
- Continuing the same old same old means more violent conflict between 2 sides which cannot defeat the other.

A new approach is needed. Who could impose it...certainly not an outsider. It's unlikely that both sides will simultaneously begin one, so it falls to whichever has great ability to do this. Israel is in the driver's seat, so I expect them find some approach other than endless war. (I'm not letting Palestinians off the hook...I just see less likelihood that a solution will originate with them. Their job will be to cooperate.)
As I said, I'm unfair.

Hmmmm... moderate realism... typical of an ignorant atheist.

Unfortunately what you are advocating here is the evil capitulation to craven criminals. Exactly who are the criminals depends on which extremists you listen to. But almost everyone with a gun has a firm opinion.

Tom

 

[CMike]

Yours is the only report I've heard of them being present. Are you sure you've got that right?

It's in his own link.

 

[CMike]

How Hamas uses its tunnels to kill and capture Israeli soldiers - The Washington Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/23/world/middleeast/gaza-israel-hamas-tunnels.html?_r=0
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/179964/inside-the-hamas-tunnel-terror-network
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/180007/concrete-facts-about-hamas

Obviously, I'm not surprised at the tactic of creating tunnels to cross the border to ambush and kill not only soldiers but innocent civilians as well-- that's only to be expected from terrorists.

What does stun me is this. These tunnels took tens of millions of dollars and an unthinkable amount of construction material to create. One estimate conservatively postulates that at least 800,000 tons of concrete have been used, which is enough to create multiple mammoth skyscrapers or mega-stadiums. One can only guess at the other materials-- steel, wiring, etc.

Hamas is supposed to be the government in Gaza, yes? So what kind of government uses millions of dollars and vast amounts of building materials to create tunnels to attack random people or maybe kidnap the occasional soldier, rather than building people homes, better streets and sidewalks, schools, hospitals-- perhaps if nothing else, bomb shelters? Even if little actual building were done, would those millions of dollars not have been spent easing the lives of the citizens of Gaza, rather than making tunnels for terrorists?

As if it were not enough that Hamas abuses ambulances to carry weaponry, houses rockets at UN schools, uses its own populace as human shields, and launches attacks from the midst of civilian areas, here they apparently were able to obtain these huge resources both literal and financial, and they p***** it all away on these tunnels. And yet people in the international community and online are still verbally coming to their defense.

This makes no sense whatsoever to me. Even if you're an anti-Zionist anti-Semite Jew hater, and you have no problem with terrorists attacking Israel, why would you ever defend a "government" that chooses exorbitant terroristic offensive projects over actually caring for its citizens and trying to make their daily lives better?

I'll add to that.

One of Israel's interceptor rockets costs about $50 thousand.

So let's estimate that one of Hamas' rockets costs about $30 thousand (rough guess).

$30,000 X 2,100 rockets = $63 million.

That's $63 million that Hamas used to buy rockets to shoot rockets into Israeli cities, rather than for the welfare of it's own people.

Also the US has given the PA $100 million where does it all go?

International aid to Palestinians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Between 2007-2008 the international community gave the palestinians $7.7 billion

Where does it all go?

Obviously we have the answer.

It goes mainly for PA/Hamas to plan terrorist attacks, i.e. rockets, underground tunnels, etc.

When is enough, enough?

 

[Levite]

I'll add to that.

One of Israel's interceptor rockets costs about $50 thousand.

So let's estimate that one of Hamas' rockets costs about $30 thousand (rough guess).

$30,000 X 2,100 rockets = $63 million.

That's $63 million that Hamas used to buy rockets to shoot rockets into Israeli cities, rather than for the welfare of it's own people.

Also the US has given the PA $100 million where does it all go?

International aid to Palestinians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Between 2007-2008 the international community gave the palestinians $7.7 billion

Where does it all go?

Obviously we have the answer.

It goes mainly for PA/Hamas to plan terrorist attacks, i.e. rockets, underground tunnels, etc.

When is enough, enough?

Hamas' rockets are probably less expensive than that-- most of what they shoot is crap made, which is why they tend to be easy to intercept and so why Iron Dome has such a high success rate.

Nonetheless, your point remains in that they waste a ton of money on this sort of thing, rather than spending it on their own people.

 

[CMike]

I don't know what a Kassam rocket costs.

 

[metis]

The longer range missiles are from Iran, from what I understand, and one reason why Hamas may be fighting this conflict and not going along with cease-fires is to try and open up their ports so they can bring more in by ship because Egypt closed off its border with Gaza.