CMike
Well-Known Member
We certainly don't want to slow down their import of rockets.
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Palestinians under attack
- Thread starter Matemkar
- Start date
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Maybe you're misinterpreting what I wrote?
I do agree with you , if they ALL call for that .
accuatly ,recently , i heard ONE individual speech of a leader of Hamas, calling the palestinians to don't listen to the Israeli army , and i disagree with that at all .
because we know that Israeli army don't respect the human laws in war .
but my guess Israeli army is bombing the civilians in Gaza because of Hamas that's disgusting reason "cause" ,WHY ?
because,for exemple :
IF Hamas was in "TEL AVIV" or in any other Jewish town , Israeli army WOULD used other way "treatement " to avoid to kill the VALUE civilian " the jews " .
so their "jews" civilians are treated as Civilians , and Muslims"arabs" civilians inside Gaza are NOT !
for my opinion , we are facing a racist and non-human war , when developped Army facing an isolated , seiged people in city Gaza .
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Here's a comment on the actions of the IDF by British Commander Kemp, who served as head of British forces in Afghanistan and served on the UK's Joint Intelligence Committee:
Thank you, Mr. President.
I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Government’s Joint Intelligence Committee.
"Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.
Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population.
Hamas, like Hizballah, are expert at driving the media agenda. Both will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents.
The IDF faces a challenge that we British do not have to face to the same extent. It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights.
The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.
Despite all of this, of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes.
More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas’ way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians.
Mr. President, Israel had no choice apart from defending its people, to stop Hamas from attacking them with rockets.
And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.
Thank you, Mr. President." -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NX6vyT8RzMo#!
Thank you, Mr. President.
I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Government’s Joint Intelligence Committee.
"Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.
Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population.
Hamas, like Hizballah, are expert at driving the media agenda. Both will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents.
The IDF faces a challenge that we British do not have to face to the same extent. It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights.
The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.
Despite all of this, of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes.
More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas’ way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians.
Mr. President, Israel had no choice apart from defending its people, to stop Hamas from attacking them with rockets.
And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.
Thank you, Mr. President." -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NX6vyT8RzMo#!
How would you suggest we respond to rocket fire and infiltration attempts?
ametist
Active Member
when a palestinian says that, it can make sense. but they dont have internet connection or any means to reach to world or gasoline at the hospitals at the moment are they? nevermind. still can you find a palestinan saying all that pls? it will be great help to ignore the rest of the crisis.
but i hereby gotto say though, i will never personally approve when a 'robber' takes me as a hostage, it is ok the police should shoot me in the head, trying to bring down the 'robber'. i should live. that is my right.
but i hereby gotto say though, i will never personally approve when a 'robber' takes me as a hostage, it is ok the police should shoot me in the head, trying to bring down the 'robber'. i should live. that is my right.
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as i know Israel first which bomb Gaza because of kidnepping/killing 3 jews in West Bank .
even Hamas denied that action , Israel insist to bomb Gaza .
this my suggest :
1- remove the siege to let them live normal in Gaza .
2- end occupation in West Bank and end distinction and racist treatement against the Muslims and Arabs inside Isreal .
3-avoid the civilians in the war .
4-keep the word in the deal ,NOT every PM disagree/break with his previous .
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Levite
Higher and Higher
"Surrender or die," I would assume....
Respectfully, the is not "each side." Rather, there are three sides: Israel, the Palestinians, and Hamas. To suggest the Hamas has as its goal "peace, prosperity, liberty, a secure autonomous country." is to naively and irresponsibly dismiss it's Charter.
How's this for a slogan:
Down with the Israeli Occupation! Down with the Hamas Terrorists! Fight for Two States for Two People Living in Dignity and Peace!
And perhaps we should begin by internalizing the perspective found in articles such as this ...
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
No.
Throughout the months preceding the kidnapping and murder of those three teenagers Israel has retaliated to rocket fire coming out of Gaza.
That is one perspective. I think a more productive one is to view Hamas's power & violence as
existing because of the plight of the Palestinians. Take the wind out of their sails by more
effectively addressing Palestinian concerns. This will take much time & patience.
Calling anyone a terrorist will only inflame things.
Some slogan suggestions (lame though the be):
Let's find common ground.
Down with conflict.
I haven't read your whole linked article yet, but it looks interesting so far.
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This illustrates a problem. Too many think their options are limited to vicious
warfare or becoming a total victim. It's high time to think outside of that box.
I know you were just being clever, but Godobeyer deserves a better response
than that.
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Moishe3rd
Yehudi
Hamas' power and violence in Gaza was born in 2007 when they took over Gaza; declared war on Israel; pledged to annihilate Israel; and murdered all non Hamas party members of the Palestinian Authority who would not swear allegiance to the Theocratic murderous aims of Hamas.
After cleansing Gaza of all Arabs who dared stand against them, Hamas continued to attack Israel.
It was ONLY THEN that Israel AND EGYPT closed their borders.
I see Hamas as a symptom of the problem, rather than the problem itself.
Were they to go away tomorrow, some other violent organization would
fill the void. So the issue is not who is the bogeyman, but why is the bogeyman.
And, therefore, you infer that "its goals, [are] eg, peace, prosperity, liberty, a secure autonomous country." Seriously? Have you read their Charter?
CMike
Well-Known Member
Hamas' concern is that Israel exists-period.
The only way to please Hamas is for Israel no longer to exist.
This is not acceptable to the country.
Moishe3rd
Yehudi
Then one could extrapolate from your concerns that this applies to the larger Muslim and/or Arab world.
They kill each other for the sake of their own particular sect; faction; cult; clan; or power group to dominate the others and thereby gain the riches and power they want.
The bogeyman, like all politicians and leaders, is there to Win.
It is a sort of amoral corporate fascism where Winning is everything but death is the penalty for losing.
CMike
Well-Known Member
No we know where Hamas is getting most of it's money Qatar.
Opinion: Confronting Qatar's Hamas ties - Jonathan Schanzer - POLITICO.com
However, Roskam, Barrow, and a growing group of other legislators dont believe that should absolve the Qataris of their support for a terrorist group best known for suicide bombings and firing rockets into civilian areas. Of particular concern is Qatars reported pledge of $400 million in financial aid to Hamas last year, and the fact that Hamass leader, Khaled Meshal, now hangs his hat in Doha. Meshal recently delivered a sermon at Qatars Grand Mosque in which he affirmed Hamass commitment to liberate Jerusalem a euphemism for the destruction of Israel.
Then Iran is giving Hamas another $250 million
Hamas set to gain support, funding from Gaza battle | Reuters
Relations with Iran soured over Hamas's refusal in 2011 to back Tehran's ally, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, in his war against mainly Islamist rebels. As Sunni Muslims, Palestinians have been an anomaly in Iran's alliances with fellow Shi'ites from the Gulf, through Iraq to Lebanon.
Diplomatic sources have told Reuters the Islamic republic previously used to give Hamas a $250-million annual subsidy
And now the US is giving Hamas $147 million
We are now up to aboaut $800 million for Hamas
All in all they get 7-10 billion dollars a year.
Where Hamas Gets Its Money - Forbes
Where Hamas Gets Its Money
It is important to alleviate the suffering of innocent Palestinians. However, since Gaza is under Hamas control, we have to ask: Will aid reach the suffering populace? If the past is any indication, most funds and supplies will end up with Hamas.
Since then, despite repeated promises to cut off funds for Hamas, international aid organizations and many countries kept on sending money to Gaza, purportedly for humanitarian aid. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, raises money for Gaza through its Web site, with payments going through WorldPay (part of the Royal Bank of Scotland Group ), the Arab Bank PLC in Gaza and HSBC in Amman, Jordan. Those funds come in addition to UNRWAs annual budget of $400 million.
The $7 billion to $10 billion that the Palestinian Authority has received since 1993 has come from the European Union, the U.N., the U.S., Saudi Arabia and other Arab League countries. France alone has sent more than $3 billion.
This influx of cash has done little to advance the development of a viable Palestinian state or of peace in the region. Rather, it has helped to fuel the Palestinian leaderships terrorist agenda, and kept the Palestinian people oppressed and disenfranchised.
In the mid-1990sshortly after the Palestinian Authority came into existencethe Palestinian writer Fawaz Turki described the regime as the dissolution of civilized society, of all civil norms and all hope. Despite all of this, most international organizations and the world community at large continue to ignore the ongoing human and civil rights violations perpetrated against the Palestinians by their own leadership, including the destruction of Gaza and the death of hundreds of its citizens.
In a meeting hosted by Abu Dhabi on Jan. 12, representatives from the Palestinian Authority and several donor countries, including Egypt, Britain and the U.S., met to discuss efforts to raise and send undisclosed amounts of money to help Palestinians in Gaza. The United Arab Emirates (UAE) also pledged to rebuild schools, mosques, hospitals and 1,300 damaged Gaza houses. In addition, the Emirates raised more than $87 million in a nationwide telethon on Jan. 9.
Supplies and cash for Hamas have been pledged from all over the world, not merely from Iran, On Jan. 3, Saudi Arabias King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz donated $8 million of the more than $26.7 million raised in a national fundraising telethon for the Relief of the Palestinian People in Gaza. Qatar, which pledged $50 million when Hamas was elected in 2006, promised to send more.
While condemning Israel, the European Union pledged more than $4 million in humanitarian aid to Gaza. In 2008, it provided Gaza with $55.6 million. In addition, European Union member states pledged more than $41 million, including $10.5 million from the British governments Department for International Development. Japan pledged $10 million, and terror-struck India said it would send $1 million. Norway has announced a pledge of about $4.5 million, while Australia is adding $3.5 million in addition to the $32 million it gave in 2008. Additionally, other countries sent tons of medical and humanitarian supplies. This more than meets the UNRWA emergency appeal for $34 million.
Incredibly, Israel also supplies Hamas with cash. It began transferring truckloads of cash to Gaza after Hamas violent takeover of the territory in June 2007. The first transfer of more than $51 million (delivered in Israeli shekels) was purportedly to strengthen the influence of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in the Gaza Strip and pay the salaries of 35,000 Palestinian Authority employees then allegedly loyal to him. Among those employees, however, were Ismail Haniya, the Hamas-appointed prime minister in Gaza, and Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas foreign minister.
Zahar prides himself on many successful terrorist attacks against Israel, and his position regarding Israel is clear. All of Palestine, every inch of Palestine belongs to the Muslims, he has said. If the goal was to strengthen Abbas position, the cash should have been delivered to him in the West Bank city of Ramallah. From there, he could have transferred the money to Gaza, as he has done in the past, and claim credit for it.
Yet the Israelis relied on Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyads promise that the money would not reach Hamas or be used for any terrorist activityeven though Fayyad has little control over Palestinian Authority funds in Fatah-controlled West Bank, let alone in Hamas-controlled Gaza. Not long ago, Fayyad himself stated (and not for the first time) that controlling Palestinian finances is virtually impossible. Besides, promises by Fatah leaders that they will stop funds from going to Hamas are dubious at best.
Despite Fatah-Hamas disagreements, the Palestinian Authoritys Fatah-led government announced on Jan. 15, 2008, its intentions to give Hamas 40% ($3.1 billion) of the $7.4 billion pledged in December 2007 by international donors. In October 2008, despite the crackdown on Fatah members in Gaza, the Palestinian Authority was paying the salaries of 77,000 employees.
In December 2008, under U.S. and international pressure, Israel delivered between $64 million and $77 million in cash to Gaza. When Hamas rocket attacks intensified, Israeli banks started refusing to transfer cash to Gaza. World Bank President Robert B. Zoellick, International Monetary Fund Managing Director Dominique Strauss-Kahn, and Tony Blair, who is now Mideast envoy for the E.U., Russia, the U.N. and the U.S., sent a letter to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert complaining that such refusals are counterproductive and ultimately harm Palestinian moderates. Clearly, the world community is set on seeing the terrorist group Hamas as legitimate. But demanding that Israel pay its own executioners goes way too far.
Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld is director of the American Center for Democracy and author of Funding Evil: How Terrorism is Financed and How to Stop It
IT'S GOING FOR TERRORISM IDIOTS!!!!
Opinion: Confronting Qatar's Hamas ties - Jonathan Schanzer - POLITICO.com
However, Roskam, Barrow, and a growing group of other legislators dont believe that should absolve the Qataris of their support for a terrorist group best known for suicide bombings and firing rockets into civilian areas. Of particular concern is Qatars reported pledge of $400 million in financial aid to Hamas last year, and the fact that Hamass leader, Khaled Meshal, now hangs his hat in Doha. Meshal recently delivered a sermon at Qatars Grand Mosque in which he affirmed Hamass commitment to liberate Jerusalem a euphemism for the destruction of Israel.
Then Iran is giving Hamas another $250 million
Hamas set to gain support, funding from Gaza battle | Reuters
Relations with Iran soured over Hamas's refusal in 2011 to back Tehran's ally, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, in his war against mainly Islamist rebels. As Sunni Muslims, Palestinians have been an anomaly in Iran's alliances with fellow Shi'ites from the Gulf, through Iraq to Lebanon.
Diplomatic sources have told Reuters the Islamic republic previously used to give Hamas a $250-million annual subsidy
And now the US is giving Hamas $147 million
We are now up to aboaut $800 million for Hamas
All in all they get 7-10 billion dollars a year.
Where Hamas Gets Its Money - Forbes
Where Hamas Gets Its Money
It is important to alleviate the suffering of innocent Palestinians. However, since Gaza is under Hamas control, we have to ask: Will aid reach the suffering populace? If the past is any indication, most funds and supplies will end up with Hamas.
Since then, despite repeated promises to cut off funds for Hamas, international aid organizations and many countries kept on sending money to Gaza, purportedly for humanitarian aid. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, raises money for Gaza through its Web site, with payments going through WorldPay (part of the Royal Bank of Scotland Group ), the Arab Bank PLC in Gaza and HSBC in Amman, Jordan. Those funds come in addition to UNRWAs annual budget of $400 million.
The $7 billion to $10 billion that the Palestinian Authority has received since 1993 has come from the European Union, the U.N., the U.S., Saudi Arabia and other Arab League countries. France alone has sent more than $3 billion.
This influx of cash has done little to advance the development of a viable Palestinian state or of peace in the region. Rather, it has helped to fuel the Palestinian leaderships terrorist agenda, and kept the Palestinian people oppressed and disenfranchised.
In the mid-1990sshortly after the Palestinian Authority came into existencethe Palestinian writer Fawaz Turki described the regime as the dissolution of civilized society, of all civil norms and all hope. Despite all of this, most international organizations and the world community at large continue to ignore the ongoing human and civil rights violations perpetrated against the Palestinians by their own leadership, including the destruction of Gaza and the death of hundreds of its citizens.
In a meeting hosted by Abu Dhabi on Jan. 12, representatives from the Palestinian Authority and several donor countries, including Egypt, Britain and the U.S., met to discuss efforts to raise and send undisclosed amounts of money to help Palestinians in Gaza. The United Arab Emirates (UAE) also pledged to rebuild schools, mosques, hospitals and 1,300 damaged Gaza houses. In addition, the Emirates raised more than $87 million in a nationwide telethon on Jan. 9.
Supplies and cash for Hamas have been pledged from all over the world, not merely from Iran, On Jan. 3, Saudi Arabias King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz donated $8 million of the more than $26.7 million raised in a national fundraising telethon for the Relief of the Palestinian People in Gaza. Qatar, which pledged $50 million when Hamas was elected in 2006, promised to send more.
While condemning Israel, the European Union pledged more than $4 million in humanitarian aid to Gaza. In 2008, it provided Gaza with $55.6 million. In addition, European Union member states pledged more than $41 million, including $10.5 million from the British governments Department for International Development. Japan pledged $10 million, and terror-struck India said it would send $1 million. Norway has announced a pledge of about $4.5 million, while Australia is adding $3.5 million in addition to the $32 million it gave in 2008. Additionally, other countries sent tons of medical and humanitarian supplies. This more than meets the UNRWA emergency appeal for $34 million.
Incredibly, Israel also supplies Hamas with cash. It began transferring truckloads of cash to Gaza after Hamas violent takeover of the territory in June 2007. The first transfer of more than $51 million (delivered in Israeli shekels) was purportedly to strengthen the influence of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in the Gaza Strip and pay the salaries of 35,000 Palestinian Authority employees then allegedly loyal to him. Among those employees, however, were Ismail Haniya, the Hamas-appointed prime minister in Gaza, and Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas foreign minister.
Zahar prides himself on many successful terrorist attacks against Israel, and his position regarding Israel is clear. All of Palestine, every inch of Palestine belongs to the Muslims, he has said. If the goal was to strengthen Abbas position, the cash should have been delivered to him in the West Bank city of Ramallah. From there, he could have transferred the money to Gaza, as he has done in the past, and claim credit for it.
Yet the Israelis relied on Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyads promise that the money would not reach Hamas or be used for any terrorist activityeven though Fayyad has little control over Palestinian Authority funds in Fatah-controlled West Bank, let alone in Hamas-controlled Gaza. Not long ago, Fayyad himself stated (and not for the first time) that controlling Palestinian finances is virtually impossible. Besides, promises by Fatah leaders that they will stop funds from going to Hamas are dubious at best.
Despite Fatah-Hamas disagreements, the Palestinian Authoritys Fatah-led government announced on Jan. 15, 2008, its intentions to give Hamas 40% ($3.1 billion) of the $7.4 billion pledged in December 2007 by international donors. In October 2008, despite the crackdown on Fatah members in Gaza, the Palestinian Authority was paying the salaries of 77,000 employees.
In December 2008, under U.S. and international pressure, Israel delivered between $64 million and $77 million in cash to Gaza. When Hamas rocket attacks intensified, Israeli banks started refusing to transfer cash to Gaza. World Bank President Robert B. Zoellick, International Monetary Fund Managing Director Dominique Strauss-Kahn, and Tony Blair, who is now Mideast envoy for the E.U., Russia, the U.N. and the U.S., sent a letter to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert complaining that such refusals are counterproductive and ultimately harm Palestinian moderates. Clearly, the world community is set on seeing the terrorist group Hamas as legitimate. But demanding that Israel pay its own executioners goes way too far.
Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld is director of the American Center for Democracy and author of Funding Evil: How Terrorism is Financed and How to Stop It
IT'S GOING FOR TERRORISM IDIOTS!!!!
CMike
Well-Known Member
Because we exist.
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
Negotiations between the Palestinians and Israel have never acheived anything, for more than a generation 'talks' have proven to be pointless. What has empowered Hamas has been decades of frustration at the utter futility of negotiation.
At some point Israel must recognise that unless negotiations actually acheive something Palestine will become increasingly radicalised. What drives this conflict is that for 60 years negotiations have acheived nothing.
The more frustrated a people get, the more dangerous. The less effective political negotiations are, the less value the populace will place upon them.
Hamas is a direct product of the failure of 60 years of negotiations.
At some point Israel must recognise that unless negotiations actually acheive something Palestine will become increasingly radicalised. What drives this conflict is that for 60 years negotiations have acheived nothing.
The more frustrated a people get, the more dangerous. The less effective political negotiations are, the less value the populace will place upon them.
Hamas is a direct product of the failure of 60 years of negotiations.