Paris terrorists not Practicing Muslims at all

[leibowde84]

Not true in any way whatsoever.

Islamic law only applies to Muslims. An Islamic State or Khilafah judges by faith, so if you are not a Muslim Islamic laws do not apply to you. And non-Muslims who live under an Islamic State/Khilafah live autonomously. They live by their own laws and faith. They are simply required to pay tax for their earnings/crops just as all countries require their citizens to pay tax.

Good idea in theory, but I doubt it could ever work in reality.

 

[Gharib]

So you are saying I could go the a Islamic state and freely live as I want, with a wife that doesn't need to cover her head ?.

Of course there are restrictions. Just as I am free to practice my faith in a western country you too are permitted to practice your faith. However, just as I am not allowed to do certain things non-Muslims will not be allowed either. When it comes practices that are considered a crime by the government then they are a crime for all to commit. Western or Islamic.

The Islamic government does have a say on certain public matters. But these matters do not undermine other people's faiths. That is one of the conditions of choosing to live under Islamic rule. If someone or some group of people do not want to live under Islamic rule they are free to go outside of it's borders.

 

[Gharib]

I read it, understood it, and noticed that you didn't point out any contradictions. So, can you kindly point out what contradiction specifically you are referring to? Might help if you explain why you think it is, in fact, a contradiction.

You said that their actions reflect Islamic teachings because they read the Qur'an and the Hadith. In order to derive a ruling from the Qur'an and Hadith, ie to do what is commanded in them, one needs to be able to read and understand Arabic.

These people do not know how to read Arabic let alone understand it. And they do not even know how to pray. All those who join ISIS are people who until yesterday committed everything that Islam prohibited. They join ISIS and think that their are fulfilling their duty of Jihad and therefore are exempt from all other practices that Islam mandates for being a Muslim. The do not know the first thing about Islam. So don't go telling me they read the Qur'an and Hadith.

 

[Gharib]

Good idea in theory, but I doubt it could ever work in reality.

It did work in reality until 1924.

Due to colonialism, the lands of the Muslims were divided to reflect nationality and ethnicity rather than human brotherhood. Leaders were placed to rule these countries that complied to their western rulers. And thus lead to the worsening of the application of Islamic rulings. These leaders present themselves religious and Islamic but in fact are not.

Egypt is one recent example. Almost every western nation played a role in the coup against Morsi. They supposedly stand against human rights violations and yet the Egyptian dog Sisi was welcomed by Britain like he was the next in line to the English throne. They are happy with him so long as he oppresses Muslims in his country and has no say about other countries.

 

[Shusha]

The problem with all of these not a real Muslim arguments is that they are essentially based on differing interpretations of Islam's worldview, scripture, theology. Differing versions of Islam -- but obviously sourced in the same worldview, scripture and basic theology so they are all obviously under Islam's umbrella. Its ridiculous to try and divorce Islam from the ideology from which these terrorists operate.

And the truly ironic thing is that they are doing the same to you (moderate Muslims). They are saying that YOU are the ones who are not following the TRUE faith.

It sounds utterly ridiculous to the ears of non-Muslims.

Instead of denying that these people are Muslims, practicing a form of Islam -- why don't you present arguments about why their interpretation is incorrect and yours is correct? Why don't you concentrate on showing us the loving and merciful G-d which exists in Islam? Why don't you just acknowledge the problematic verses and demonstrate how you understand them? It really would go much farther towards peace to do this.

 

[Lyndon]

I read it, understood it, and noticed that you didn't point out any contradictions. So, can you kindly point out what contradiction specifically you are referring to? Might help if you explain why you think it is, in fact, a contradiction.

Some people don't see any contradicton in saying one thing and following that by saying just the opposite, its hard to have a rational argument with such folk.

 

[Shusha]

So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe.(6:125)

Can you please explain your understanding of this verse? Just so I don't unintentionally misinterpret it.

 

[psychoslice]

Of course there are restrictions. Just as I am free to practice my faith in a western country you too are permitted to practice your faith. However, just as I am not allowed to do certain things non-Muslims will not be allowed either. When it comes practices that are considered a crime by the government then they are a crime for all to commit. Western or Islamic.

The Islamic government does have a say on certain public matters. But these matters do not undermine other people's faiths. That is one of the conditions of choosing to live under Islamic rule. If someone or some group of people do not want to live under Islamic rule they are free to go outside of it's borders.

So therefore there is no worries about whatever country a Muslims wants to live, if that country forbids women covering their heads, then that is how they should live their, by their laws.

 

[Gharib]

So therefore there is no worries about whatever country a Muslims wants to live, if that country forbids women covering their heads, then that is how they should live their, by their laws.

Non-Islamic countries are not faith based unlike Islamic. So to ban a veil is to go against their own foundation of separating state and church/faith. If you advertise yourself as not wanting to have anything to do with religion then why stuff your nose in religious matters? Moreover, the veil doesn't contradict any law of any given western country. Having 4 women on the other hand does contradict western laws, so Muslims are not allowed to have more than 1 wife under such countries. Simple as that.

 

[psychoslice]

Non-Islamic countries are not faith based unlike Islamic. So to ban a veil is to go against their own foundation of separating state and church/faith. If you advertise yourself as not wanting to have anything to do with religion then why stuff your nose in religious matters? Moreover, the veil doesn't contradict any law of any given western country. Having 4 women on the other hand does contradict western laws, so Muslims are not allowed to have more than 1 wife under such countries. Simple as that.

Mmmm, I wont argue, but I don't think your completely right, not what I have gathered by reading and watching the news over a number of years.

 

[Gharib]

Mmmm, I wont argue, but I don't think your completely right, not what I have gathered by reading and watching the news over a number of years.

For example....?

 

[Jumi]

That was the shooter at the community college in America, not a Muslim, get your facts straight.

Actually it was also the case in this tragedy:

A gunman pointed directly at him but did not fire, Mr Goettinger added. He told police he was asked by one of the gunmen if he believed in God, and he said he did. He was asked if he was French, and he said he was Chilean.

He was let go.

 

[Jumi]

Almost every western nation played a role in the coup against Morsi.

Many of the big players no doubt did, but to say almost all is too much. There are many more that didn't.

 

[Gharib]

Many of the big players no doubt did, but to say almost all is too much. There are many more that didn't.

No disagreement. I was actually referring to the major players, almost all of them. Maybe I should have worded my post a little differently and a little clearer. I didn't mean all western countries.

 

[FearGod]

Can you please explain your understanding of this verse? Just so I don't unintentionally misinterpret it.

The verse means that God chooses whom he wanted to guide to Islam,
so the person who God dislike won't let him comfortable by living the
Islamic way of life which makes him feel as strangled similar to the
feeling when rising up towards the sky.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Instead of denying that these people are Muslims, practicing a form of Islam -- why don't you present arguments about why their interpretation is incorrect and yours is correct? Why don't you concentrate on showing us the loving and merciful G-d which exists in Islam? Why don't you just acknowledge the problematic verses and demonstrate how you understand them? It really would go much farther towards peace to do this.

Well said. The denial we see in this thread is entirely unconvincing.

 

[FearGod]

The problem with all of these not a real Muslim arguments is that they are essentially based on differing interpretations of Islam's worldview, scripture, theology. Differing versions of Islam -- but obviously sourced in the same worldview, scripture and basic theology so they are all obviously under Islam's umbrella. Its ridiculous to try and divorce Islam from the ideology from which these terrorists operate.

And the truly ironic thing is that they are doing the same to you (moderate Muslims). They are saying that YOU are the ones who are not following the TRUE faith.

It sounds utterly ridiculous to the ears of non-Muslims.

Instead of denying that these people are Muslims, practicing a form of Islam -- why don't you present arguments about why their interpretation is incorrect and yours is correct? Why don't you concentrate on showing us the loving and merciful G-d which exists in Islam? Why don't you just acknowledge the problematic verses and demonstrate how you understand them? It really would go much farther towards peace to do this.

I tried in one thread to explain the real meanings of such verses and the ones who opposed me
were the disbelievers themselves even though they have limited knowledge in the teachings of Islam
, they insisted to understand the verses as the terrorists do.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I tried in one thread to explain the real meanings of such verses and the ones who opposed me
were the disbelievers themselves even though they have limited knowledge in the teachings of Islam
, they insisted to understand the verses as the terrorists do.

I have tried to follow some of these debates but it's not easy. It seems to be about how selectively people quote, and how literally people interpret certain passages.

 

[Lyndon]

They invariably use bad English translations of the Koran, and don't have clue about the Arabic meaning, which the Muslims are trying to explain.

 

[illykitty]

I think it's more likely that they are Muslims and they think their interpretation of Islam is the correct one. Are you seriously suggesting they are not finding inspiration from Islam's texts for their actions? Are you not aware of any quotes from the Quran or Hadith which could be interpreted in harmful ways?

Perhaps a more conductive thing would be to disprove their version of Islam, instead of being in denial. If you can't destroy their ideas, then how will this ever stop? Even if we destroy IS, another group which agrees with their ideas might pop up. Destroy the source of the problem, it's less likely to happen again. At the very least they will have less recruits because you can debunk their ideas.

Unfortunately my post and @Shusha 's are most likely to be ignored.