Paris terrorists not Practicing Muslims at all

[FearGod]

In other words, Islam is completely disconnected from Muslims? Are you really trying to argue that the actions of today's Muslims are not influenced by Islam at all? I think your own actions and arguments are influenced by Islam, and I don't think I'm wrong to think so.

Do you know why some countries invent warplanes and mass destructive weapons,
i'll tell you why, because they have been influenced by the Muslims.

What does Taliban have to do with my argument?

And yes, Pakistan is a Muslim country. I said I was citing free election and poll results particularly and not exclusively from the Arab world.

Taliban and the ISIS are all the same games used by the superpowers.

He doesn't represent the views of all Egyptians, but a good portion of Egyptians support Islamists. The majority of voters voted for an Islamist parliament and an Islamist president in free elections after the 25th of January revolution.

Do you want to say that most part of the Egyptians are terrorists by supporting the Islamists or you have
one other point.

I made a thread about the kind of people who believe that bin Laden was working for the U.S.:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/the-arab-world-the-perspective-of-an-insider.181640/

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/the-arab-world-the-perspective-of-an-insider.181640/

And you know facts while the others are guessing.

So the people who are for flogging Raif Badawi are Muslims. Good thing you disagree with them, but that doesn't change the fact that there are also many Muslims who agree with flogging him.

People are free for how to think, but why the world are so weak from helping Raif and free him from the prison.

By the way, look up Bashar ibn Burd.

Look up Elijah Parish Lovejoy

No one represents Egypt; there are only people who represent(ed) the majority of Egypt, like Morsi did when he was elected by a majority, and the fact of the matter is that the majority did elect Islamists to represent them. I think you know what the beliefs of Islamists are like.

Is Sisi an Islamist.

Yeah, and they apparently think that Shari'a is the way to achieve that. That's quite unfortunate.

By the Sharia they can eat food !?, would you pls clarify how's that ? what the relation between Sharia and the ability to find foods.

Are you trying to tell me that what I keep hearing, reading, and seeing in my own country is wrong? Seriously, if you are going to try to paint a different picture of Muslims, at least don't try to tell people that the observations before their very eyes are wrong. Acknowledging reality would be a good start to change things for the better.

Do you want to say there's no night clubs, wine, dancing..etc in Egypt ?

There are certain conditions for imposing a moratorium on punishments, but that doesn't mean they are canceled forever.

These are a few verses that scholars and Islamists keep citing to support their position that they must implement Shari'a into state law:

The verses which you mentioned is about a specific judgement, it isn't about flogging or stoning, so try another one

The majority of scholars interpret these verses to mean that Muslims must rule their countries with Shari'a. The Muslims who voted for Islamists apparently agreed with them or at least didn't mind the concept of Shari'a's being made into state law.

So the problem is with the scholars and how they wanted to interpret the quran.

Do you think a leader like Umar and Saladin would give atheists, homosexuals, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., their rights and freedoms, or would he punish people for premarital sex, "practicing homosexuality," attacking or criticizing religion, and promoting secularism, among other things? I would totally support an Islamic leader if he or she were to provide these minorities with their complete rights and freedoms.

Do you mean you're willing to support a society with prostitution and freedom..etc
For example if your sister wanted to work as a prostitute, will you ask her not to work as a prostitute
or she has the freedom to choose the job she wanted in the society that you're looking for.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Do you know why some countries invent warplanes and mass destructive weapons,
i'll tell you why, because they have been influenced by the Muslims.

What does this even have to do with anything I've said? You still haven't answered my question.

Taliban and the ISIS are all the same games used by the superpowers.

Again refusing to acknowledge that they are Islamic extremists who are the product of a specific kind of tribalistic, prejudiced culture. Maybe the global superpowers are not doing as much as they can to eliminate these terrorist organizations or minimize their power, but that doesn't mean these groups were made by said superpowers.

Do you want to say that most part of the Egyptians are terrorists by supporting the Islamists or you have
one other point.

My point is that a whole lot of Muslims support fundamentalism and/or violent Islamic punishments.

And you know facts while the others are guessing.

Where did I say that? It would probably be a good idea if you stopped responding to imaginary claims I have supposedly made and instead started responding to what I'm actually saying.

People are free for how to think, but why the world are so weak from helping Raif and free him from the prison.

My hunch is that developed countries are coddling Saudi Arabia because of oil, mainly. I think it's shameful that powerful countries like the U.S. are not doing more to free Raif and those like him.

Look up Elijah Parish Lovejoy

His death shows that the U.S. went through a terrible period at one point, but there is no more widespread slavery in the U.S, whereas "heretics" are still persecuted in a lot of Muslim-majority countries today.

Is Sisi an Islamist.

No, he's not. A lot of people support him, but Islamists have a lot of support too.

By the Sharia they can eat food !?, would you pls clarify how's that ? what the relation between Sharia and the ability to find foods.

The typical argument is that Shari'a would provide justice in the state and so poor people would be treated better, corruption would be reduced, etc. I can see why the working class and poor people would think so, but I also think they don't even think of or care about the negative aspects of Shari'a because they believe it has no negative aspects.

Do you want to say there's no night clubs, wine, dancing..etc in Egypt ?

This is at least the third time you have assumed something I didn't say. There are nightclubs, wine, and dancing in Egypt, but the majority of Egyptians look down on people who go to nightclubs, drink wine, or become dancers.

The verses which you mentioned is about a specific judgement, it isn't about flogging or stoning, so try another one

I have already quoted the verse about flogging for premarital sex, and the verses I mentioned are interpreted by most scholars (at least here) to mean that it is mandatory to govern Islamic countries with Shari'a.

So the problem is with the scholars and how they wanted to interpret the quran

The main problem is with how those texts lend themselves to extremist interpretations, and yes, I think most scholars are the problem as well. Do you think a lot of Muslims would be inclined to reject most scholars' opinions? I hope they would be, because a lot of Islamic scholars hold on to prejudiced, outdated opinions.

Do you mean you're willing to support a society with prostitution and freedom..etc
For example if your sister wanted to work as a prostitute, will you ask her not to work as a prostitute
or she has the freedom to choose the job she wanted in the society that you're looking for.

I think prostitution should be regulated so that no one is forced into it. If my hypothetical sister wanted to work as a prostitute out of her own choice, I would advise her that prostitution was risky and could subject her to abuse and exploitation. Ultimately, though, it would be her choice whether or not to work as a prostitute if she was an informed adult. I could only advise her, and that would be it.

What would you do if your sister wanted to work as a prostitute because she wanted to? Would you prevent her by force? I think the question is quite loaded, but I'm interested to see you answer your own question.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes, you should learn Tagalog to understand the quran.

But, most Muslims I know don't know how to read Arabic. So, does that mean that they aren't "real" muslims?

 

[leibowde84]

Quran in translation is not like Quran in Arabic

it's like translate a song from English (or otherwise) to Arabic .
it's lost it's beauty and drop in less sense .

But, most Muslims in the US read it in English. Are they lesser Muslims?

 

[Godobeyer]

But, most Muslims in the US read it in English. Are they lesser Muslims?

no , they are Muslims (no up no down) , but they don't understand Quran in original language "Arabic "

there is no degree between Muslims in color or language , or rich or poor .

btw Most of Muslims in world don't speak Arabic or understand Arabic .

 

[leibowde84]

no , they are Muslims (no up no down) , but they don't understand Quran in original language "Arabic "

there is no degree between Muslims in color or language , or rich or poor .

btw Most of Muslims in world don't speak Arabic or understand Arabic .

Exactly, so the other comments pointing out how a Muslim can't read the Quran in Arabic and is, thus, not a "real" Muslim are incorrect, right?

 

[leibowde84]

I said that ISIS and those who follow follow it don't know anything about Islam, it's teachings or practices.

Then you said, it's not like they don't read the Qur'an and Hadith.

And I mentioned an example from Nigeria where a commander of Boko Haram, who like ISIS claim of having established a Khilafah, doesn't know how to read Arabic nor know how to pray the 5 daily prayers.

And then you said it's not a condition to know how to read the Qur'an in Arabic?

How could you not see that you are contradicting yourself.

How am I contradicting myself specifically?

 

[leibowde84]

I self-identify as the US government and I say Germany is a terrorist country. How do I qualify??

One’s own religious identity is up to the individual. The US Government, otoh, is elected or appointed. It is not up to the individual to declare that they are part of the US Government. That’s why this comparison is illogical.

 

[leibowde84]

no , they are Muslims (no up no down) , but they don't understand Quran in original language "Arabic "

there is no degree between Muslims in color or language , or rich or poor .

btw Most of Muslims in world don't speak Arabic or understand Arabic .

Exactly.

 

[Gharib]

Exactly, so the other comments pointing out how a Muslim can't read the Quran in Arabic and is, thus, not a "real" Muslim are incorrect, right?

Who said that not being able to read the Qur'an in arabic makes one a fake or lesser Muslim? Who has argued such a point anyway. ???

 

[leibowde84]

The belief system isn't filthy but the people who see it to be so "are".
For example Islam forbids adultery, but the filthy people want to be ****** day and night,
just as one example of many.

I’m not sure that anyone here would argue with you that adultery is wrong and should be avoided and understood as being damaging to families and society in general. So, I see this as a straw man. You are only arguing with the depravity of mankind in general. And, I would assume that the vast majority of the world agrees with you and this teaching of Islam. For that reason, it doesn’t seem impressive at all, but more along the lines of common sense.

 

[leibowde84]

Who said that not being able to read the Qur'an in arabic makes one a fake or lesser Muslim? Who has argued such a point anyway. ???

It has been used a few times now to point out that certain Muslims aren't really Islamic. Take a look back at some of Lyndon's comments above.

 

[leibowde84]

Almost all Christians don't follow their faith (texts) other than claim to be Christian, apart from maybe Mormons. They don't drink alcohol, don't eat pork, don't drink caffeine etc. Again not all of them do this but as a generalization they seem to follow the Bible and it's teachings.

There is nothing in the Bible that forbids alcohol or caffeine. Jesus drank alcohol himself, and even provided it to his followers. Caffeine wasn't known about back then.

 

[Gharib]

How am I contradicting myself specifically?

Keep wondering that, you'll catch up eventually in this century or the next.

 

[leibowde84]

Keep wondering that, you'll catch up eventually in this century or the next.

So, you were just lying about me contradicting myself? Or, can you point out what you were referring to?

 

[leibowde84]

Keep wondering that, you'll catch up eventually in this century or the next.

The fact that you avoid pointing out my contradiction by getting person is truly telling, btw. Let's try to be adults here.

 

[Flankerl]

Do you know why some countries invent warplanes and mass destructive weapons,
i'll tell you why, because they have been influenced by the Muslims.

Just quoted it because its hilarious.

lol

 

[FearGod]

What does this even have to do with anything I've said? You still haven't answered my question.

Do you think the world will be better without Islam ? what's your opinion ?

Again refusing to acknowledge that they are Islamic extremists who are the product of a specific kind of tribalistic, prejudiced culture. Maybe the global superpowers are not doing as much as they can to eliminate these terrorist organizations or minimize their power, but that doesn't mean these groups were made by said superpowers.

That's you opinion but never facts.

My point is that a whole lot of Muslims support fundamentalism and/or violent Islamic punishments.

Did the previous Islamist president Mursi stoned the Egyptians as kind of punishment ?

Where did I say that? It would probably be a good idea if you stopped responding to imaginary claims I have supposedly made and instead started responding to what I'm actually saying.

I'm responding to what you're saying, just prove that your opinion is facts while the others aren't.

My hunch is that developed countries are coddling Saudi Arabia because of oil, mainly. I think it's shameful that powerful countries like the U.S. are not doing more to free Raif and those like him.

What a shame ? the world are slaves to money, the religion of today.
So the only loser is Raif because he was affected by people similar to you and was left alone without any help.

His death shows that the U.S. went through a terrible period at one point, but there is no more widespread slavery in the U.S, whereas "heretics" are still persecuted in a lot of Muslim-majority countries today.

No, he's not. A lot of people support him, but Islamists have a lot of support too.

Is SISI a Muslim and his supporters or they aren't.

The typical argument is that Shari'a would provide justice in the state and so poor people would be treated better, corruption would be reduced, etc. I can see why the working class and poor people would think so, but I also think they don't even think of or care about the negative aspects of Shari'a because they believe it has no negative aspects.

So they're looking for justice by applying the shariah law and because they want flogging.

This is at least the third time you have assumed something I didn't say. There are nightclubs, wine, and dancing in Egypt, but the majority of Egyptians look down on people who go to nightclubs, drink wine, or become dancers.

Do you mean they have to look up for the sexy dancers and for those attending the night clubs, so what if they
look up or down, why you care about their opinions.

I have already quoted the verse about flogging for premarital sex, and the verses I mentioned are interpreted by most scholars (at least here) to mean that it is mandatory to govern Islamic countries with Shari'a.

But for other verses it doesn't say it's a mandatory otherwise why the caliphate Umar bin Alkhatab cancelled cutting
the hands of the thieves, your verse was about punishment to be in justice hand against hand...etc

The main problem is with how those texts lend themselves to extremist interpretations, and yes, I think most scholars are the problem as well. Do you think a lot of Muslims would be inclined to reject most scholars' opinions? I hope they would be, because a lot of Islamic scholars hold on to prejudiced, outdated opinions.

Yes of course some Muslims believe blindly what the scholars say and that is dangerous indeed, so do
you think such kind of scholars should be jailed ?

I think prostitution should be regulated so that no one is forced into it. If my hypothetical sister wanted to work as a prostitute out of her own choice, I would advise her that prostitution was risky and could subject her to abuse and exploitation. Ultimately, though, it would be her choice whether or not to work as a prostitute if she was an informed adult. I could only advise her, and that would be it.

So you don't like it to your sister and you won't look up to her if chose to be a prostitute.

What would you do if your sister wanted to work as a prostitute because she wanted to? Would you prevent her by force? I think the question is quite loaded, but I'm interested to see you answer your own question.

Lol, the assumption doesn't work here because prostitution isn't allowed by the law in my society and
if in a case that it's allowed then i won't let her to work in a such filthy job even if i'll spent the last pence
that i have.

 

[FearGod]

Just quoted it because its hilarious.

lol

No, it was sarcastic.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Two of the Paris terrorists were areligious pot smoking drunks who ran a bar closed by the authorities for selling hallucinogens, didn't even go to the mosque for Friday prayers obligatory to practicing Muslims;

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...of-paris-attack-brothers/ar-BBncCJB?li=AA4Zpp

So...two questions spring to mind.

1) What was their motive?
2) Do you consider Saudi authorities, who are lashing or executing apostates, to be Muslim?