Paris terrorists not Practicing Muslims at all

[FearGod]

If we define a Muslim as anyone who believes that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger, then yes, most ISIS members are Muslims. If we define a Muslim as anyone who both believes in the Shahada (the Islamic testimony of faith) and observes the commandments of Islam as interpreted by the majority of scholars, then you have an argument that ISIS are not "true Muslims." However, you have to stick to a particular interpretation and not follow an arbitrary standard by which you define who is or isn't a "true Muslim," or else you risk calling any Muslim an apostate if you say they are not Muslims just because they did something you disagree with.

The thing is that Islam has nothing to do with whom are called Muslims, Hitlers followers were Christians,
are all Christians Hitler.

My main sources are 1) election results from Muslim countries, particularly in the Arab world, and 2) poll results like this one:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2009/08/13/pakistani-public-opinion/

Pakistan isn't an Arabic country but a Muslim country and they're at war with Taliban.

I know that a lot of people in my homeland consider bin Laden a hero because, aside from hearing and reading their opinions myself, a lot of Islamists have shown support for him, including on TV. I have already recommended looking up Hazem Salah Abu Ismail so that you can see an example of a popular Islamist politician who refused to denounce bin Laden.

Hazem Salah doesn't represent the views of the Egyptians, scholars do say nonsense all the time, so what.

That depends on your definition of "Muslim." Apparently, there are many Muslims, including some scholars, who don't think someone like bin Laden was an apostate.

And many think and believe that bin Laden is working to the US and i think you know that.

Are the Saudis who arrested and flogged Raif Badawi Muslims or not, in your opinion? Are you ready to call a good portion of the Muslim world who disagree with you "apostates" and argue that they are not Muslims?

They're Muslims but i don't agree about flogging a person because of his views.

Al Razi wrote a book against the quran, was he flogged

On the Quran, al-Razi said:

You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?!

There you go:

And I find it hard to believe that you thoroughly researched the politician and preacher I told you about in less than a few hours. All I had to do to find the above video again was type "Abu Ismail bin Laden" in Arabic on YouTube.

But this person doesn't represent Egypt.

You are digressing. I didn't even mention wanting to change anyone's mind; I was just stating what I believe to be facts.

The fact is the Egyptians are looking for the food and the peace of mind.

It's a shame that most Egyptians consider dancers like her "whores" and look down on them.

No, they regard it as an Egyptian art but yes they look sexy with the semi naked dress.

You see, discussions like this one are why I usually find it futile and frustrating to talk about the problems of the Muslim world with Muslims. There are Muslims who are willing to discuss them, but a lot of them just keep sidetracking these discussions and denying facts and direct observations instead of trying to address what is in front of them. I don't know what your view of the Muslim world is, but I'm wondering if you truly think that most Muslims are against stoning or at the very least lashing, which is directly prescribed as a punishment for "fornication" in Qur'an 24:2:

And what the quran says if we don't want to flog the Adulterers will that lead us to the hell.
the caliphate Umar bin al khatab cancelled the punishment of cutting the hands of the thieves and which
opposes the quran, so what

I think the Muslim world needs more people who are capable of self-criticism. Avoidance and intellectual complacency are not going to get it out of its current backward state.

The Muslims world needs a leader similar to Umar and Saladin

 

[FearGod]

You're living in denial. Why are you defending these nutters?

No one is defending them, to the hell they go and the ones who supporting them.

 

[Shusha]

You're living in denial. Why are you defending these nutters?

He's not defending the nutters. He's defending Islam. Sadly, he's defending Islam by doing exactly what nutter Islamists do: by declaring those who don't believe in the "right" brand of Islam as apostates.

 

[Sunstone]

This is such a fun thread! But why isn't it in the jokes section?

 

[Lyndon]

I was simply trying to say that these two terrorists don't sound at all like they are Muslim fundamentalists. From my experience when I practiced Islam, the more conservative, fundamentalist (or devout) Muslims frequent the Mosque for prayers, not just on Friday, and you wouldn't expect them to smoke or drink at all. The media is portraying ISIS as a Muslim fundamentalist movement, in some small ways this may be true, but in many other ways, not true, I think.

 

[Gharib]

ISIS and those dumb idiots who follow them know nothing about Islam, it's practices or it's teachings.

 

[leibowde84]

They call themselves Muslims. I see them as extremist, hate filled, cold blooded killers. Call them whatever you like... but let's please crush them and anyone else with similar plans.

Amen. They are absolutely the worst.

 

[leibowde84]

The thing is that Islam has nothing to do with whom are called Muslims, Hitlers followers were Christians,
are all Christians Hitler.



Pakistan isn't an Arabic country but a Muslim country and they're at war with Taliban.



Hazem Salah doesn't represent the views of the Egyptians, scholars do say nonsense all the time, so what.



And many think and believe that bin Laden is working to the US and i think you know that.



They're Muslims but i don't agree about flogging a person because of his views.

Al Razi wrote a book against the quran, was he flogged

On the Quran, al-Razi said:

You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?!



But this person doesn't represent Egypt.



The fact is the Egyptians are looking for the food and the peace of mind.



No, they regard it as an Egyptian art but yes they look sexy with the semi naked dress.



And what the quran says if we don't want to flog the Adulterers will that lead us to the hell.
the caliphate Umar bin al khatab cancelled the punishment of cutting the hands of the thieves and which
opposes the quran, so what



The Muslims world needs a leader similar to Umar and Saladin

Why do you rely on this tired straw man so much?

 

[leibowde84]

ISIS and those dumb idiots who follow them know nothing about Islam, it's practices or it's teachings.

You think they've never read the Quran? Hadiths?

I keep on seeing these generalized claims like "they don't know nuthin' bout Islam", but I have yet to see any proof as to how they are contradicting specific passages in the Quran and/or Hadiths.

Please provide.

 

[Lyndon]

Most of them, no........

 

[Gharib]

You think they've never read the Quran? Hadiths?

I keep on seeing these generalized claims like "they don't know nuthin' bout Islam", but I have yet to see any proof as to how they are contradicting specific passages in the Quran and/or Hadiths.

Please provide.

Nigeria recently captured a senior Boko Haram commander and he didn't know how to read the Qur'an in Arabic nor how to pray.

They contradict the teachings of Islam in so many ways, to not have heard of any such contradiction simply means you either don't know anything about the group or you don't know anything about Islam and therefore what ever they do must be Islamic.

One clear example is rape, among thousands more.

 

[leibowde84]

Most of them, no........

And, what verifiable evidence do you have to support this belief? How do you know that they haven't read any number of hadiths and the quran? Remember there are lots of hadiths.

 

[leibowde84]

Nigeria recently captured a senior Boko Haram commander and he didn't know how to read the Qur'an in Arabic (who cares if he can read it in arabic. Are you really claiming that every real muslim can read tge quran in arabic?! Vould he read it in any otger language?) nor how to pray (very subjective)

 

[leibowde84]

Nigeria recently captured a senior Boko Haram commander and he didn't know how to read the Qur'an in Arabic nor how to pray.

They contradict the teachings of Islam in so many ways, to not have heard of any such contradiction simply means you either don't know anything about the group or you don't know anything about Islam and therefore what ever they do must be Islamic.

One clear example is rape, among thousands more.

I swear, every other comment adds another requirement for being a "real" muslim. I'm pretty sure most Christians haven't read the bible.

 

[leibowde84]

Nigeria recently captured a senior Boko Haram commander and he didn't know how to read the Qur'an in Arabic nor how to pray.

They contradict the teachings of Islam in so many ways, to not have heard of any such contradiction simply means you either don't know anything about the group or you don't know anything about Islam and therefore what ever they do must be Islamic.

One clear example is rape, among thousands more.

Pretty much all Christians do things that contradict Jesus' teachings. It's ridiculous still to not call them Christian.

 

[leibowde84]

Most of them, no........

So, according to you, you have to follow the laws of Islam perfectly without exception to be considered a "real" Muslim?! You don't see the utter ridiculousness?!

 

[Lyndon]

Why don't you try thinking about what you post, you just contradicted yourself, you said ISIS must read the Koran and Hadith and then you come back and say why should ISIS have to read the Koran and Hadith. You honestly don't seem to have a clue about Islam or what it really is. And yet you're here contradicting Muslim posters as if you know better about Islam than they do.

 

[leibowde84]

Why don't you try thinking about what you post, you just contradicted yourself, you said ISIS must read the Koran and Hadith and then you come back and say why should ISIS have to read the Koran and Hadith. You honestly don't seem to have a clue about Islam or what it really is. And yet you're here contradicting Muslim posters as if you know better about Islam than they do.

I never claimed any of this. Please cite my specific comments.

 

[leibowde84]

Why don't you try thinking about what you post, you just contradicted yourself, you said ISIS must read the Koran and Hadith and then you come back and say why should ISIS have to read the Koran and Hadith. You honestly don't seem to have a clue about Islam or what it really is. And yet you're here contradicting Muslim posters as if you know better about Islam than they do.

You can't really think that evidence of not following things in the Quran and hadiths means that someone hasn't read any of said texts.

 

[Lyndon]

Another Muslim terrorist, woman suicide bomber, not practicing Islam;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-...home-of-suspect-female-suicide-bomber/6957370