Paris terrorists not Practicing Muslims at all

[YmirGF]

You were one of them, I believe Ymir.

Unlike you, I can backup any statement I make.

 

[FearGod]

It seems to me that I will inevitably have to restate my argument, so here it goes:

1) The OP made the claim that the terrorists who carried out the Paris attacks were not practicing Muslims.

Which means Muslims by name as many atheists are Christians by name.

2) I responded saying that a lot of the members of ISIS and Al-Qaeda are indeed practicing Muslims (like bin Laden himself, whom a lot of Muslims consider a hero, at least where I live), and that tens of millions of Muslims supported things like stoning, lashing, and killing homosexuals, which was made evident in their voting choices when they voted for fundamentalist (Islamist) parties that had a particularly harsh interpretation of Shari'a.

How did you know that a lot of Muslims in your homeland consider bin Laden a hero ? and what is your official
sources which proves that tens of millions of Muslims support stoning.

So I'm mentioning these things to respond to the OP, who seems to be arguing that "true" or "practicing" Muslims can't be violent.

Yes a Muslim can't kill innocent people for no reason, Killing civilians is shame and the work of evil.

If you are inclined to, I recommend looking up Hazem Salah Abu Ismail in Arabic. Just read some of the comments on articles mentioning him and listen to his own words. This is a man whose pictures were lifted up high in Islamist demonstrations where over a million people gathered in a public square in Egypt. He refused to call bin Laden a non-believer and said "May Allah have mercy on him." Millions of Egyptians support him. Actually, I just asked my older brother whom he would vote for president if he had the free choice to. He said, "Abu Ismail."

I didn't see that the Egyptian care about bin Laden, even your source doesn't mention bin Laden.

I think I know well about the two countries I've spent my entire life in, FearGod. I'm not some stranger who is making arguments out of the blue; this is stuff I have been researching, reading about, and listening to stuff about for years now. I struggled with it as a Muslim and wanted things to be different, but they are what they are. I guess we just don't share the same view of the Muslim world if you believe that most Muslims are moderate people who don't support anything violent like stoning or lashing.

Egypt are looking for Sharia and you want to change the minds of the Egyptians..

Enjoy the Egyptian dancing

 

[leibowde84]

Lyndon said: ↑
Well in the other threads a lot of posters were arguing that ISIS is in fact representative of Islam, hence my reason for posting this.



You were one of them, I believe Ymir.

Why do you keep making it personal? Can't we just stick to the issues at hand?

 

[FearGod]

Nope. The definition does not say that he must be recognized by the entire Muslim community to be a Caliph. He must merely be recognized as such by those in the Caliphate. Those in the Islamic State recognize their Caliph as representing the entire Muslim community. That's all that the definition requires.

And how you know they're a real caliphate, do you just trust their words or just you want to ?

 

[Lyndon]

Leibowde, You're the one that falsely claimed no one was linking ISIS to Muslims in general.

 

[leibowde84]

And how you know they're a real caliphate, do you just trust their words or just you want to ?

They are a real caliphate because they fulfill the definition of what a caliphate is. Whether or not they are recognized as THE official Caliphate is another story altogether. I do not think and have never claimed that they represent all Muslims in actuality. They merely claim to, and their adherents believe that this caliphate does, in fact, represent the entirety of Muslims throughout the world.

They are most definitely an illegitimate caliphate, but an illegitimate caliphate is still a caliphate. They just aren't THE Caliphate.

"Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi's group the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) declared its governmental structure a 'caliphate' on June 29, 2014 after taking control of large swathes of territory in Syria (which for a prolonged period of time comprised over 50% of that country[5][6]) and Iraq.[7] Nevertheless, it is regarded by much of the Muslim world and Muslim scholars to be an illegitimate caliphate within the basis of Islam."

 

[Lyndon]

How does a false califate become a califate, if the califate is false it is not a califate.

 

[leibowde84]

How does a false califate become a califate, if the califate is false it is not a califate.

Not sure where "false caliphate" came from. I said "illegitimate calliphate", not "false". It exists, so it can't be "false". It is "illegitimate" because, although the caliphate claims to represent all Muslims, most Muslims do not accept this.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Which means Muslims by name as many atheists are Christians by name.

If we define a Muslim as anyone who believes that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger, then yes, most ISIS members are Muslims. If we define a Muslim as anyone who both believes in the Shahada (the Islamic testimony of faith) and observes the commandments of Islam as interpreted by the majority of scholars, then you have an argument that ISIS are not "true Muslims." However, you have to stick to a particular interpretation and not follow an arbitrary standard by which you define who is or isn't a "true Muslim," or else you risk calling any Muslim an apostate if you say they are not Muslims just because they did something you disagree with.

How did you know that a lot of Muslims in your homeland consider bin Laden a hero ? and what is your official
sources which proves that tens of millions of Muslims support stoning.

My main sources are 1) election results from Muslim countries, particularly in the Arab world, and 2) poll results like this one:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2009/08/13/pakistani-public-opinion/

I know that a lot of people in my homeland consider bin Laden a hero because, aside from hearing and reading their opinions myself, a lot of Islamists have shown support for him, including on TV. I have already recommended looking up Hazem Salah Abu Ismail so that you can see an example of a popular Islamist politician who refused to denounce bin Laden.

Yes a Muslim can't kill innocent people for no reason, Killing civilians is shame and the work of evil.

That depends on your definition of "Muslim." Apparently, there are many Muslims, including some scholars, who don't think someone like bin Laden was an apostate.

Are the Saudis who arrested and flogged Raif Badawi Muslims or not, in your opinion? Are you ready to call a good portion of the Muslim world who disagree with you "apostates" and argue that they are not Muslims?

I didn't see that the Egyptian care about bin Laden, even your source doesn't mention bin Laden.

There you go:

And I find it hard to believe that you thoroughly researched the politician and preacher I told you about in less than a few hours. All I had to do to find the above video again was type "Abu Ismail bin Laden" in Arabic on YouTube.

Egypt are looking for Sharia and you want to change the minds of the Egyptians..

You are digressing. I didn't even mention wanting to change anyone's mind; I was just stating what I believe to be facts.

Enjoy the Egyptian dancing

It's a shame that most Egyptians consider dancers like her "whores" and look down on them.

You see, discussions like this one are why I usually find it futile and frustrating to talk about the problems of the Muslim world with Muslims. There are Muslims who are willing to discuss them, but a lot of them just keep sidetracking these discussions and denying facts and direct observations instead of trying to address what is in front of them. I don't know what your view of the Muslim world is, but I'm wondering if you truly think that most Muslims are against stoning or at the very least lashing, which is directly prescribed as a punishment for "fornication" in Qur'an 24:2:

The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

(Source of translation.)

I think the Muslim world needs more people who are capable of self-criticism. Avoidance and intellectual complacency are not going to get it out of its current backward state.

 

[leibowde84]

How does a false califate become a califate, if the califate is false it is not a califate.

It is dishonest to just replace a term like "illegitimate" with the word "false". It would only be "false" if the adherents of the Islamic State were purposely decieving people, lying that this was a caliphate in their minds. In actuality, they really do see it as a caliphate. But, most Muslims see it, not as false, but as "illegitimate".

ille·git·i·mate
ˌiləˈjidəmət/
adjective

1. not authorized by the law; not in accordance with accepted standards or rules.

 

[Glaurung]

You don't just call yourself a Caliph and you have a Califate, the majority of Muslims have to accept your authority, clearly ISIS is not accepted as a Califate.

Sure you can, if you have the supporters, territory and firepower to enforce it. You define true Muslim as being a supporter of your caliphate by definition, then you shoot the apostates.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Which means Muslims by name as many atheists are Christians by name.



How did you know that a lot of Muslims in your homeland consider bin Laden a hero ? and what is your official
sources which proves that tens of millions of Muslims support stoning.



Yes a Muslim can't kill innocent people for no reason, Killing civilians is shame and the work of evil.



I didn't see that the Egyptian care about bin Laden, even your source doesn't mention bin Laden.



Egypt are looking for Sharia and you want to change the minds of the Egyptians..

Enjoy the Egyptian dancing

I noticed that you had gone offline after I had posted my latest reply to you. I don't know when you'll be back online, but I have to get some sleep now.

See you when you're back, man. Have a good night.

 

[Shusha]

I don't believe anyone is claiming that IS is representative of Islam or all Muslims. That would be ridiculous. But it is equally ridiculous to claim that IS ideology is not derived from Islam, from its worldview and from its texts. It obviously is.

Rather than argue the no true Muslim silliness, what those within the Muslim community should be arguing, loudly, is the interpretation of the troublesome passages. They should be tackling those head on, with all their difficulties.

For example, both IS and moderate Muslims agree that non-muslims must not be physically attacked or made war against, except in circumstances where Muslims are being oppressed or physically attacked (self-defence). The interpretation lies in what constitutes "self-defence". I think moderates can make a very good case for their interpretation. And they should. Rather than fooling around with this no true Muslim or not all Muslims nonsense.

 

[Nietzsche]

Yeah, but we're being told these extremists are Islamic fundamentalists, these guys are not fundamentalists by any stretch of the word, Islamic fundamentalists practically live at the mosque, not just Friday prayers , but up to 5 times every day, and they never touch alcohol and rarely smoke.

By this reckoning Mohammad was a terrible Muslim, what with all that stuff he did outside the Mosque.

 

[Nietzsche]

I don't believe anyone is claiming that IS is representative of Islam or all Muslims. That would be ridiculous. But it is equally ridiculous to claim that IS ideology is not derived from Islam, from its worldview and from its texts. It obviously is.

Rather than argue the no true Muslim silliness, what those within the Muslim community should be arguing, loudly, is the interpretation of the troublesome passages. They should be tackling those head on, with all their difficulties.

For example, both IS and moderate Muslims agree that non-muslims must not be physically attacked or made war against, except in circumstances where Muslims are being oppressed or physically attacked (self-defence). The interpretation lies in what constitutes "self-defence". I think moderates can make a very good case for their interpretation. And they should. Rather than fooling around with this no true Muslim or not all Muslims nonsense.

In fairness to the majority of Muslims, they tend to be extremely poor, and generally lack food, let alone an internet connection or a way to show to the wider world that ISIS is as repulsive to them as they are to us.

 

[Glaurung]

Well in the other threads a lot of posters were arguing that ISIS is in fact representative of Islam, hence my reason for posting this.

No one serious has ever argued that. Our argument is that Salafist-style Islam is an integral part of the motivating wordview of these Islamist groups. No one is saying all Muslims are at fault for terrorism, but regardless of how many law-abiding Muslims there may be (which of course is the majority) these groups are motivated in a large part by hardline Islamic beliefs. There is no getting around this, face reality for once in your life.

When someone is willing to blow themselves up screaming "Allahu Akbar", you may want to at least consider the possibly that they sincerely mean it. You don't commit a suicide attack over insincere beliefs. You don't die for Allah if you're not convinced of an immediate paradise in return.

 

[Lyndon]

So why aren't these two terrorists in the OP practicing Salafist style Islam, it seems to me much of these terrorists may not be part of a fundamentalist conservative Islamic belief at all. And just be plain nut cases, like the non Muslim shooter terrorists in America. Do the American non Muslim terrorists have sincere beliefs for their terrorism, or are they just suicidal psychopaths.

 

[Glaurung]

So why aren't these two terrorists in the OP practicing Salafist style Islam

They did, they even died for it.

Just because they may not have practised the way you would deem it for them doesn't mean they didn't believe what they said they believed. Hell, I've gone for beers at a Christmas party with self-identified Muslims. (Law-abiding, hard-working Muslims whom I'm happy to consider as fellow Australians) Their selective observance of dietary law may not make them 'devout' enough for you, but that doesn't make them non-Muslims whenever it's convenient for you not to regard them as such.

 

[Scott C.]

Yeah, but we're being told these extremists are Islamic fundamentalists, these guys are not fundamentalists by any stretch of the word, Islamic fundamentalists practically live at the mosque, not just Friday prayers , but up to 5 times every day, and they never touch alcohol and rarely smoke.

They call themselves Muslims. I see them as extremist, hate filled, cold blooded killers. Call them whatever you like... but let's please crush them and anyone else with similar plans.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So why aren't these two terrorists in the OP practicing Salafist style Islam, it seems to me much of these terrorists may not be part of a fundamentalist conservative Islamic belief at all. And just be plain nut cases, like the non Muslim shooter terrorists in America. Do the American non Muslim terrorists have sincere beliefs for their terrorism, or are they just suicidal psychopaths.

You're living in denial. Why are you defending these nutters?