Paris terrorists not Practicing Muslims at all

[FearGod]

But, most Muslims I know don't know how to read Arabic. So, does that mean that they aren't "real" muslims?

You said no need to know Arabic to read the quran.

 

[leibowde84]

You said no need to know Arabic to read the quran.

I'm asking what your opinion is.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Do you think the world will be better without Islam ? what's your opinion ?

Yes, definitely. I think the world would be better without any religion, especially Islam.

That's you opinion but never facts.

It's a fact that a lot of the people joining ISIS are Islamic extremists. It's also a fact that Al-Qaeda killed American citizens and their leader was anti-American. It seems clear to me that he was indeed an Islamic extremist. Even Abu Ismail (the preacher and politician I mentioned earlier) mourned him as a Muslim.

Did the previous Islamist president Mursi stoned the Egyptians as kind of punishment ?

No. He didn't spend enough time as president to do much. Besides, if Shari'a had been implemented into state law, the Islamist parliament most likely would have been the ones to do that. The parliament was dissolved before they could do that.

What a shame ? the world are slaves to money, the religion of today.
So the only loser is Raif because he was affected by people similar to you and was left alone without any help.

If I had the power to help Raif, I would. It just happens that those with the power to help him are silent on the blatant infringement on human rights in Saudi Arabia.

Not sure what point you're trying to make. I said there was no more widespread slavery in the U.S.; I didn't say racism no longer existed.

Is SISI a Muslim and his supporters or they aren't.

Defining a Muslim as someone who "believes that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger," then yes, he seems to be a Muslim.

Most of his supporters are Muslims. I know quite a few myself; they're practicing Muslims.

So they're looking for justice by applying the shariah law and because they want flogging.

They're looking for justice, so they want Shari'a, which they believe to be the best way to achieve justice. Shari'a includes flogging according to most scholars' and Islamists' interpretations.

Do you mean they have to look up for the sexy dancers and for those attending the night clubs, so what if they
look up or down, why you care about their opinions.

Did I say they have to look up to them? No? Then you're assuming things I haven't said yet again.

But for other verses it doesn't say it's a mandatory otherwise why the caliphate Umar bin Alkhatab cancelled cutting
the hands of the thieves, your verse was about punishment to be in justice hand against hand...etc

According to most Islamic scholars, there are conditions for applying Shari'a. When it comes to cutting off thieves' hands, the condition is that the person who stole could live without stealing. A person stealing out of need shouldn't have his hand cut off. That's why Umar ibn Al-Khattab imposed a moratorium on the Islamic punishment for theft.

That doesn't negate the rest of what I said: most scholars and Islamists believe that the state should be governed according to Shari'a, and Shari'a includes things like fogging and stoning. Even if those punishments are postponed for a while, they will eventually be imposed again—if they aren't imposed from the beginning, that is.

Yes of course some Muslims believe blindly what the scholars say and that is dangerous indeed, so do
you think such kind of scholars should be jailed ?

Nobody should be jailed for merely voicing their opinions. Scholars who incite violence and encourage it should be penalized by the state, however.

So you don't like it to your sister and you won't look up to her if chose to be a prostitute.

Looking up to her or not would have nothing to do with whether or not she chose to work as a prostitute. I judge people based on their actions, words, and respect for others, not merely based on their profession of choice.

Lol, the assumption doesn't work here because prostitution isn't allowed by the law in my society and
if in a case that it's allowed then i won't let her to work in a such filthy job even if i'll spent the last pence
that i have.

What if she still wanted to work as a prostitute even if you offered her money?[/quote]

 

[Nietzsche]

So why aren't these two terrorists in the OP practicing Salafist style Islam, it seems to me much of these terrorists may not be part of a fundamentalist conservative Islamic belief at all. And just be plain nut cases, like the non Muslim shooter terrorists in America. Do the American non Muslim terrorists have sincere beliefs for their terrorism, or are they just suicidal psychopaths.

I'm getting extremely tired of your incessant garbage. These were Muslims. Not Good Muslims. Not Respectable Muslims. Not Normal Muslims. Not Regular Muslims.

But they are Muslims. They follow the Prophet(pbuh). They were engaged in counter-intel. Making themselves seem like Good Muslims, like Respectable Muslims. But it was a charade.

How do you get heat off you? By playing as something you're not. In this case, they played the part of the 'Western Muslim'. Assimilated into the French cultural sphere. They may have even have truthfully been so at one time. But when they were contacted by ISIS, the spark of religious fervour was lit. What they used to do recreationally they now did as cover. And it ended in the death of over a hundred Frenchmen.

Do you get it now?

 

[Jumi]

The murderers asked one of the concertgoers if he believed in God. When he answered that he did, they let him go. They probably didn't have time to ask everyone they were too busy firing short bursts into the people they told to get down.

 

[MARCELLO]

This may happen to me in a minute. Oh my God,pls help me. But they look and act so peacefully.

 

[Jumi]

The folks you are talking about are probably naive. They send their support to people who use it to kill innocents and force marriage on their daughters.

 

[FearGod]

Yes, definitely. I think the world would be better without any religion, especially Islam.

Yes i understand your feelings.

So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe.(6:125)

It's a fact that a lot of the people joining ISIS are Islamic extremists. It's also a fact that Al-Qaeda killed American citizens and their leader was anti-American. It seems clear to me that he was indeed an Islamic extremist. Even Abu Ismail (the preacher and politician I mentioned earlier) mourned him as a Muslim.

How you know it's facts ? Do you have a tangible evidences other than the media ?

No. He didn't spend enough time as president to do much. Besides, if Shari'a had been implemented into state law, the Islamist parliament most likely would have been the ones to do that. The parliament was dissolved before they could do that.

You're guessing here, do you call it facts too ? one year isn't enough.

If I had the power to help Raif, I would. It just happens that those with the power to help him are silent on the blatant infringement on human rights in Saudi Arabia.

Who cares, he's the only one loser and that's disappointing.

Not sure what point you're trying to make. I said there was no more widespread slavery in the U.S.; I didn't say racism no longer existed.

Many are working under slavery conditions, it's called modern slavery.

Defining a Muslim as someone who "believes that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger," then yes, he seems to be a Muslim.

Most of his supporters are Muslims. I know quite a few myself; they're practicing Muslims.

Sisi praying in Mecca

They're looking for justice, so they want Shari'a, which they believe to be the best way to achieve justice. Shari'a includes flogging according to most scholars' and Islamists' interpretations.

But Mursi the previous president of Egypt ruled for one year without flogging.

Did I say they have to look up to them? No? Then you're assuming things I haven't said yet again.

You're the one who said "but the majority of Egyptians look down on people who go to nightclubs, drink wine, or become dancers"

According to most Islamic scholars, there are conditions for applying Shari'a. When it comes to cutting off thieves' hands, the condition is that the person who stole could live without stealing. A person stealing out of need shouldn't have his hand cut off. That's why Umar ibn Al-Khattab imposed a moratorium on the Islamic punishment for theft.

So we can dismiss some laws in some cases, did the quran says don't cut the hands for those who steal "out of need" ?

That doesn't negate the rest of what I said: most scholars and Islamists believe that the state should be governed according to Shari'a, and Shari'a includes things like fogging and stoning. Even if those punishments are postponed for a while, they will eventually be imposed again—if they aren't imposed from the beginning, that is.

No need to steal.

Nobody should be jailed for merely voicing their opinions. Scholars who incite violence and encourage it should be penalized by the state, however.

Yes i agree and that's what the Muslim world are doing, they penalize them.

Looking up to her or not would have nothing to do with whether or not she chose to work as a prostitute. I judge people based on their actions, words, and respect for others, not merely based on their profession of choice.

IOW you'll accept her choice to work as a prostitute and it has nothing to do with your relationship with
her and i guess your decision will be the same for your daughters if they insist to have the same choice.

What if she still wanted to work as a prostitute even if you offered her money?

In this case to the hell she goes, i won't respect her along with her choice.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes i understand your feelings.

So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe.(6:125)



How you know it's facts ? Do you have a tangible evidences other than the media ?



You're guessing here, do you call it facts too ? one year isn't enough.



Who cares, he's the only one loser and that's disappointing.



Many are working under slavery conditions, it's called modern slavery.

Sisi praying in Mecca

But Mursi the previous president of Egypt ruled for one year without flogging.



You're the one who said "but the majority of Egyptians look down on people who go to nightclubs, drink wine, or become dancers"



So we can dismiss some laws in some cases, did the quran says don't cut the hands for those who steal "out of need" ?



No need to steal.



Yes i agree and that's what the Muslim world are doing, they penalize them.



IOW you'll accept her choice to work as a prostitute and it has nothing to do with your relationship with
her and i guess your decision will be the same for your daughters if they insist to have the same choice.



In this case to the hell she goes, i won't respect her along with her choice.

Often I think the words "won't respect her" have different meaning in different cultures. Can you explain a bit more specifically what you mean by this? How would you actions towards her change? Or, do you simply mean that you would ignore her?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yes i understand your feelings.

So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe.(6:125)

Quoting the Qur'an in an argument with me is just like quoting Harry Potter or the Twilight Saga. It doesn't hold much weight for me.

How you know it's facts ? Do you have a tangible evidences other than the media ?

If you don't believe that many members of Al-Qaeda are Islamic extremists, then there is really little point to this discussion we're having. If someone doesn't acknowledge the role of Islamic extremism in forming Al-Qaeda, their arguments will be far too disconnected from reality to be meaningful.

You're guessing here, do you call it facts too ? one year isn't enough.

Yes, they couldn't do it, thankfully. I think they would have most likely done it if they had stayed in power for much longer.

Who cares, he's the only one loser and that's disappointing.

It's definitely disappointing. One of my dreams is to see a cultural revolution in the Middle East so that people like Raif Badawi are not persecuted anymore. Hopefully he will be remembered for his courage if such a revolution takes place.

Many are working under slavery conditions, it's called modern slavery.

We are talking about a specific kind of slavery, aren't we? Expanding the definition of "slavery" to fit anything we want it to does nothing but make the term meaningless.

Sisi praying in Mecca

And?

But Mursi the previous president of Egypt ruled for one year without flogging.

I have already addressed this point. Re-read my posts if you can't see where I did.

You're the one who said "but the majority of Egyptians look down on people who go to nightclubs, drink wine, or become dancers"

Yes, but you're making a false dichotomy whereby one either looks down on those people or looks up to them. How about just respecting them and treating them as normal human beings?

So we can dismiss some laws in some cases, did the quran says don't cut the hands for those who steal "out of need" ?

The Qur'an doesn't explicitly state everything. That's what fiqh and scholarship are for.

Yes i agree and that's what the Muslim world are doing, they penalize them.

Really? Because last I checked, the major Saudi scholars are still out in full force.

IOW you'll accept her choice to work as a prostitute and it has nothing to do with your relationship with
her and i guess your decision will be the same for your daughters if they insist to have the same choice.

Whether or not I accept her choice has nothing to do with whether or not I would force her to follow my advice. I would definitely respect her regardless of her choice.

In this case to the hell she goes, i won't respect her along with her choice.

Good to know what kind of brother you would be. Thanks for your honesty.

 

[Lyndon]

The murderers asked one of the concertgoers if he believed in God. When he answered that he did, they let him go. They probably didn't have time to ask everyone they were too busy firing short bursts into the people they told to get down.

That was the shooter at the community college in America, not a Muslim, get your facts straight.

 

[leibowde84]

That was the shooter at the community college in America, not a Muslim, get your facts straight.

Well, in Mali, the terrorists were indeed testing victims as to whether they were Muslim. If they passed the test, they were released. This seems to be a common aspect of most Islamic State attacks in that take place in the West.

 

[FearGod]

Often I think the words "won't respect her" have different meaning in different cultures. Can you explain a bit more specifically what you mean by this? How would you actions towards her change? Or, do you simply mean that you would ignore her?

Yes, cut my relationship with her and leave her alone to manage her own life the way she wanted it to be away of me.

 

[FearGod]

Well, in Mali, the terrorists were indeed testing victims as to whether they were Muslim. If they passed the test, they were released. This seems to be a common aspect of most Islamic State attacks in that take place in the West.

That is funny and stupid similar to the ones produced for fun

 

[metis]

Seems that the OP fits all too well into the "not a true Scotsman" fallacy. The brand of Islam that ISIS reflects is radical and apocalyptic but it still is a form of Islam. Do most Muslims adhere to that approach or believe in their actions? Of course not.

 

[psychoslice]

Go back in history about 50-70 years. You will see something that's called "leave us alone you little s_ _ _"

You have covered your pathetic attack against my faith by pretending to ask a polite question. Muslims have done nothing to no one. And this religion has over a billion followers, if it was Islam that preaches evil then you wouldn't be able to hide from us. It wouldn't be a little ISIS that you would be fighting against. To brandish a religion and the majority of it's followers as 'horrible and filthy' for the actions of a misguided few is willful ignorance and a very pathetic world view to have as a human being.

I still stand for what I said, but its the belief system that I am calling filthy, I know there are many good Muslims, but behind their belief system is the wish to change the world to Muslims way of thinking, this way of thinking can be very dangerous to a world that doesn't want their belief system. If I was in whatever part of the world where Muslims ruled, I would be put to death by now for saying what I have said here.

 

[Gharib]

I still stand for what I said, but its the belief system that I am calling filthy, I know there are many good Muslims, but behind their belief system is the wish to change the world to Muslims way of thinking, this way of thinking can be very dangerous to a world that doesn't want their belief system. If I was in whatever part of the world where Muslims ruled, I would be put to death by now for saying what I have said here.

Not true in any way whatsoever.

Islamic law only applies to Muslims. An Islamic State or Khilafah judges by faith, so if you are not a Muslim Islamic laws do not apply to you. And non-Muslims who live under an Islamic State/Khilafah live autonomously. They live by their own laws and faith. They are simply required to pay tax for their earnings/crops just as all countries require their citizens to pay tax.

 

[Gharib]

So, you were just lying about me contradicting myself? Or, can you point out what you were referring to?

I did point it out in a nicely written post which you obviously can't comprehend.

 

[psychoslice]

The belief system isn't filthy but the people who see it to be so "are".
For example Islam forbids adultery, but the filthy people want to be ****** day and night,
just as one example of many.

Not true in any way whatsoever.

Islamic law only applies to Muslims. An Islamic State or Khilafah judges by faith, so if you are not a Muslim Islamic laws do not apply to you. And non-Muslims who live under an Islamic State/Khilafah live autonomously. They live by their own laws and faith. They are simply required to pay tax for their earnings/crops just as all countries require their citizens to pay tax.

So you are saying I could go the a Islamic state and freely live as I want, with a wife that doesn't need to cover her head ?.

 

[leibowde84]

I did point it out in a nicely written post which you obviously can't comprehend.

I read it, understood it, and noticed that you didn't point out any contradictions. So, can you kindly point out what contradiction specifically you are referring to? Might help if you explain why you think it is, in fact, a contradiction.