Perceptions of Islam

[YmirGF]

Sir,As you wish, well the reason why I was calling you brother is because we all are children of Adam and thus we all are brothers and sisters.

You are making an assumption there, my good fellow. You should try to understand that that is simply one opinion of our origins. I do not subscribe to such fairy tales, however, I would glady die for your right to believe whatever you wish.

Your right, there is no use to quote the verses of the Quran, unless the other one believes in it, Right!

I suppose there is some truth in this statement, but you must try to appreciate that using words YOU believe to convince others who DO NOT believe, what you believe, is pushing your credibility. You run the risk of looking a tiny bit foolish. Just to be fair, I am equally unimpressed with Christians who spout chapter and verse to make their points.

Coming to the point that why Gabriel commanded him to do what he was not able to is because, The foundation of Islam is on the PRINCIPLE OF AQUIRING KNOWLEDGE, Islam whats to liberate man and woman by educating them because a liberated mind cannot be fooled. Muhammed said Aquiring knowledge is obligatory on every Muslim (man and woman); Now the fact that he was illiterate, and Gabriel comes and command's him to Read is to make a point very clear...

You have very neatly skirted what I was saying. What you are not saying is what KIND of knowledge it is incumbant on Muslims to aquire. Show me three, world renowned Islamic thinkers, from the last 50 years. Not thinkers who are renowned in the Islamic world, but who are highly regarded by the entire world. I highly doubt you can site Salmon Rushdie, although he is indeed, a very clever man.

...and i.e, people say that Muhammed copied from the Torat or the Bible, and if he was a literate many would have accepted this lie.

Um, oral tradition lends new meaning to "copy". As far as I am aware, Muhammed never wrote anything. Correct me if I am wrong. Did he, in fact, ever learn to read? I do admit, I am unsure if he did or not.

Now coming to your core question, How can one accept Muhammed as a Prophet, for that we need to get into the issue, I hope Sir, you have the stamina to read the text and reply.

You need not be concerned with my stamina, kind sir. Though a day or two may pass, I will come back to this thread to see how it is going and respond accordingly. I can only ask, "How is your stamina for my responses?"

...I continue here The biggest Misconception. Many people have a misconception that Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) was the founder of the religion of Islam. In fact, Islam is in existence since man first set foot on the earth.

Yes, how incredibly convenient a tenant of your faith. Strangely, no one mentioned Allah or Islam prior to Muhammed. Islam is making vast claims that have no basis in reality. It is not like the sages of the past can say "yes" or "no" to its bogus claims, therefore the bogus claim stands, as no one can really refute it. No one seems to notice that minor, somewhat trivial, point. It is inconceivable to me that Buddha, Krsna and Jesus, The Christ, would have agreed with Muhammed regarding his claims regarding Islam. No one since, with the exception of the Bab, whom Muslims love to hate, has given any credence to this unsubstantiated claim of Muhammed. One voice, does not make it so, no matter how many believe that voice.

God Almighty has sent several revelations and messengers to this earth. All the previous Prophets sent by God were meant only for their people and their nation and the complete message was meant for a particular time period. That is the reason that the miracle they performed like the parting of the sea, like raising the dead to life convinced the people of that time but cannot be examined and verified by us today.

Buddha was sent for only his people? His nation?
Krsna was sent for only his people? For his nation?
The christ?

Do you, in fact, know very much about these three august personalities?

Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) was the last and final messenger of God Almighty sent to the whole of humanity and his message is meant till eternity.

Yes, that is a rather neat psychological ploy. I have to commend Muhammed for such genius. The entire concept effectively nullifies anything ANYONE says AFTER Muhammed. Neato trick. Though I am not a Christian, I can only think of the cautions in the Bible regarding false prophets. Clearly, Muhammed followed those dire warnings. Seems not too many were listening. I would go as far as to suggest that ANY man/woman who says they are the ONE and only answer, is pulling our collective legs, and should be summarily disregarded as a lunatic.

Was he truthful, did he truely recieve revelations? We Muslims only boast of the ultimate miracle given to him by God that is the Holy Qur’an. Al-Qur’an is the miracle of all times. It proved itself to be a miracle 1400 years ago. It can be reconfirmed today and forever. In short, it is the miracle of miracles.

I disagree. Although, come to think of it, it is a bit of a miracle that it has lasted as long as it has. To me, that only confirms the straightjacket nature of the dogma contained within. Miraculous? Heck, like the Bible, it isn't even very well written.
BTW: Just because a person cannot read or write, does not mean they cannot take part in intelligent conversations. A clever individual could indeed dictate a book. I don't see it as that big a deal, especially when it took Muhammed 23 years to "bring down" the entire, rather thin, volume. Just because someone is illiterate, does not mean they are stupid. I actually believe that Muhammed was a genius. Quite insane, but also a genius. A rather frightening combination.

Probably the only point common amongst the people, whether they be Muslims or non Muslims is that the Qur’an was recited the first time by the man born in the city of Makkah in Arabia in the 6th Century by the name Muhammad (May peace be upon him).

Well, we finally agree. I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later.

regarding the question, was he truly a Prophet or not?, there can be basically 3 different assumptions.

Dare I point out the inherent dangers in making assumptions?

1.The first is that Prophet Muhammad (May Peace be upon him) himself consciously, sub-consciously or unconsciously authored the Holy Qur’an.

2.The second assumption that can be is that Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) he obtained it from other human sources or from other religious scripture.

3. And the 3rd is that the Holy Qur’an does not have human author but it is verbatim the word or the revelation of God Almighty.

Let us examine the one you feel is right from the three basic assumptions. Thanks Regards Mehrosh

Mehrosh, I should warn you that I have seen these arguments before. You best be original in your approach, LOL.

I go with a combo of #1 and #2. I feel that it was a deliberate, conscious act, by a man who was both a genius and also certifably insane. Please think of the ramifications of what I am meaning and try to imagine just what an insane genius COULD be capable of. My brain quails at the thought. It would certainly fall within their abilities to create an entirely new religion... but then again, THAT is an assumption.

Fond regards,

YmirGF

PS: Don't get me too wrong, I think I like you. You are definitely a bit above the average Islamic poster. Good work, so far. Just be wary of those nasty assumptions, as I will do my best to bury you under them. :slap:

 

[mehrosh]

Well then call me backwards for wanting to live in a society where women's liberation does not involve taking away their rights or where charity comes from the goodness of peoples hearts rather than forced from us in tax.

Or where we might accidentally bump into a guy with no hands!

It seems that you are talking about Islam, what do you know about woman's liberation in Islam, Muslim woman are Thanks to Almighty God more liberated even today, more than the western woman. The western woman are nothing but toys at the hand of their manmade laws, they are displayed on the screen like butterflies on the name of ART AND CULTURE. If you think forcing charity in order to help the poor is a backward step, you need to think over, and tell me what step has your mordern society taken, that is helping to put an end to poverty, theft and robbery. Either you don't wan't to understand, or maybe you understand but you just don't want to accept it.

 

[frg001]

And, sigh, I have to worship the Muslims for creating Algebra and our modern number system.

The modern number system was created by the Hindu's about 300 years before the Qur'an was written.

 

[mehrosh]

How else am I to judge Islam other than by the actions of its believers. That's precisely how I judge Christians, by their actions, not by what they say they believe.

If you say you want to judge Islam by it followers, than brother, I will be the first one to leave it.....
Don’t judge a car by its driver:
If you want to judge how good is the latest model of the “Mercedes” car and a
person who does not know how to drive sits at the steering wheel and bangs up
the car, who will you blame? The car or the driver? But naturally, the driver. To
analyze how good the car is, a person should not look at the driver but see the
ability and features of the car. How fast is it, what is its average fuel
consumption, what are the safety measures, etc. Even if I agree for the sake of
argument that the Muslims are bad, we can’t judge Islam by its followers? If you
want to judge how good Islam is then judge it according to its authentic sources,
i.e. the Glorious Qur’an and the Sahih Hadith.
Judge Islam by its best follower i.e. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh):
If you practically want to check how good a car is put an expert driver behind the
steering wheel. Similarly the best and the most exemplary follower of Islam by
whom you can check how good Islam is, is the last and final messenger of God,
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Besides Muslims, there are several honest and
unbiased non-Muslim historians who have acclaimed that prophet Muhammad
was the best human being. According to Michael H. Hart who wrote the book,
‘The Hundred Most Influential Men in History’, the topmost position, i.e. the
number one position goes to the beloved prophet of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh).
There are several such examples of non-Muslims paying great tributes to the
prophet, like Thomas Carlyle, La-Martine, etc.

Furthermore, I believe that the girl I mentioned in Pakistan WAS NOT STONED TO DEATH because of an international outcry of outrage by Atheists such as myself who do not believe in such evils and practice what we believe.

No one should believe in such evil practices, I have clarified it before that these people were not practicing Islam, Islam is without doubt the best religion but the media is in the hands of the westerners who are afraid of Islam. The media is continuously broadcasting and printing information against Islam. They either provide misinformation about Islam, misquote Islam or project a point out of proportion, if any. 1,756 rape incidents take place everyday.what are you doing regarding that?[/quote]

This is the crux of being Atheist. We do not believe we have to have someone else watching us, we don't believe we need a god watching us, in order to behave in good ways. Because of that, we do not stray from our beliefs because they are our core values, not something imposed upon us by a religious belief.

Ok, but then how many atheists will stick to good morals? don't tell me each and everyone of them, and don't tell me that atheists don't commit crime, don't do immoral acts. Because then you people cannot be human,....as you know "its human to errr..." I accept it that Muslims are displaying a very negative behaviour, but if you want to look at a Muslims, look at Muhammed, do you have any Atheist, as good in morals as Muhammed???

 

[mehrosh]

I fall to see why men cannot govern themselves not to go into a sexual frenzy at the sight of a woman's hair. I have no problem with men admiring a woman as a sexual being, as long as they admire from afar and with respect. I do the same thing myself with men, I do not treat them disrespectfully as mere sexual objects.

Thanks for telling me how your men look at woman, its awful, let me tell you that woman are not objects for sex. You call this good morals, gazing with sexual desires at some one's wife, or daughter or mother. You think this is human, this is freedom, I am sorry, we treat our woman with respect, we love them and protect them. We gaurd them, even from evil eyes. MAN AND WOMAN are equal in rights, what rights are you giving to your woman, you people feed on woman even with your eyes. Awfull. Sorry, Islam does not allow this, maybe you have the potential to just feed on woman with your eyes, no wonder why is the rape rate sooooooo high in the west.

I think this is caused by the caste system of polygamy. Rich men can have multiple wives, not to mention harems of concubines, which diminishes the likelihood of a lower income man having a wife.

There is no caste system in Islam, all humans are equal, irrespective of their gender, color, status, except one thing and that is believe in God. The system of polygamy is the one most criticized in Islam, let me tell you that practicing polygamy is not an obligation rather only an allowance.

1. Definition of Polygamy
Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one
spouse. Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygyny where a man marries
more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries
more than one man. In Islam, limited polygyny is permitted; whereas polyandry
is completely prohibited.
Now coming to the original question, why is a man allowed to have more than
one wife?
2. The Qur’an is the only religious scripture in the world that says,
“marry only one”.
The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the
phrase ‘marry only one’. There is no other religious book that instructs men to
have only one wife. In none of the other religious scriptures, whether it be the
Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta, the Talmud or the Bible does
one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one
can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and
the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one.
Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple
wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had
several wives.
In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished,
since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a few
centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one.
Polygyny is permitted in Judaism. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had
three wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives. The practice of polygyny
continued till Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah (960 C.E to 1030 C.E) issued an
edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries
continued the practice till as late as 1950, until an Act of the Chief Rabbinate of
Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife.
(*Interesting Note:- As per the 1975 census of India Hindus are more
polygynous than Muslims. The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of
Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that
the percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961
was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. According
to Indian law only Muslim men are permitted to have more than one wife. It is
illegal for any non-Muslim in India to have more than one wife. Despite it being
illegal, Hindus have more multiple wives as compared to Muslims. Earlier, there
was no restriction even on Hindu men with respect to the number of wives
allowed. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed that it
became illegal for a Hindu to have more than one wife. At present it is the Indian
Law that restricts a Hindu man from having more than one wife and not the
Hindu scriptures.)
Let us now analyse why Islam allows a man to have more than one wife.
3. Qur’an permits limited polygyny
As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth
that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from
Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an:
“Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that
ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one.”
[Al-Qur’an 4:3]
Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and
many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit
of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women,
only on the condition that he deals justly with them.
In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says:
“Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women....”
[Al-Qur’an 4:129]
Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the
misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.
Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Don’ts:
(i) ‘Fard’ i.e. compulsory or obligatory
(ii) ‘Mustahab’ i.e. recommended or encouraged
(iii) ‘Mubah’ i.e. permissible or allowed
(iv) ‘Makruh’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged
(v) ‘Haraam’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden
Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be
said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as
compared to a Muslim who has only one wife.

4. Average life span of females is more than that of males
By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A
female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the
germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the
pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the
females.
During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die
due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females
is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the
world than widowers.
5. India has more male population than female due to female
foeticide and infanticide
India is one of the few countries, along with the other neighbouring countries, in
which the female population is less than the male population. The reason lies in
the high rate of female infanticide in India, and the fact that more than one
million female foetuses are aborted every year in this country, after they are
identified as females. If this evil practice is stopped, then India too will have
more females as compared to males.
6. World female population is more than male population
In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one
million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male
population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole
has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not
wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared
to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia
has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million
more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.

 

[mehrosh]

7. Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not
practical
Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than
thirty million females in U.S.A who would not be able to get husbands
(considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more
than four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine
million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband.
Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or
suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The
only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who
already has a wife or becomes 'public property'. There is no other option. All
those who are modest will opt for the first.
Most women would nto like to share their husband with other women. But in
Islam when the situation deems it really neccessary Muslim women in due faith
could bear a small personal loss to prevent a greater loss of letting other Muslim
sisters becoming 'public properties'.
8. Marring a married man preferable to becoming 'public property'
In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple
extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected
life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one
wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and
lead a protected life.
Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to
marry a married man or to become 'public property'. Islam prefers giving
women the honourable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the
second.
There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but
it is mainly to protect the modesty of women.

Women are reduced to collectible commodities and are not free to pursue a career or job. Women who are free to work and produce income can also marry lower income men because they are not ornaments who are non-productive in a society.What an awfully materialistic lot Islam seems to me. The reducing of women to mere commodities!

No, its the west that reduces the women to mere sexual objects, like you just quoted how you feed on women with you eyes. It is Obligatory for every Muslim to pursue knowledge, whether woman or man. Women are free to work, if it is required, but if the income is enough, it is better for her to look after her children, nothing is better than a free day at home. And Muslim woman deserve it, she has no financial responsibilities, it is the man who have to provide as the commodities of life to her. If she wills and thinks she wants to pursue her career she can do it for herself.

 

[mehrosh]

The Western Society and degarded women to mere MISTRESSESS, every man has ONE WIFE and several Mistressess (don't believe me, google will help you to get the statics), this has been the practice of the world, since life is known to exit. Women being feminist, don't tend to understand this policy of men, ofcourse it is men who make the laws. And the laws allow only one wife, and having a mistress is not illegal, Why Because you don't have to look after the mistress, she is just kept for pleasure. Once she becomes your wife, you will have to look after her, provide her, and the men don't seem to care about it. These laws have degarded woman and made them mere useable objects. The west claims that it gives freedom to the woman, rather it degrads them to mistresess and society BUTTERFLIES. IT IS ONLY ISLAM, THAT UPLIFTS THE WOMAN, LIBERATES HER, GIVES HER EQUAL STATUS AND RIGHTS. A man came to the Prophet and asked him, Who has the first right of companionship on me, He said "Your Mother", he again asked, than who? He said "Your mother", he again asked than who? He said "Your mother", he again asked than who? He said "Your father"

 

[mehrosh]

The modern number system was created by the Hindu's about 300 years before the Qur'an was written.

No, was not invented by the Hindu niether the Quran. The idea was there starting from the Eyptian civilization, it kept on advancing with stages, and finally was with the Hindus, [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] In the 7th and 8th centuries the Arabs, united by Mohammed, conquered the land from India, across northern Africa, to Spain. In the following centuries (through the 14th) they pursued the arts and sciences and were responsible for most of the scientific advances made in the west. Although the language was Arabic many of the scholars were Greeks, Christians, Persians, or Jews. Their most valuable contribution was the preservation of Greek learning through the middle ages, and it is through their translations that much of what we know today about the Greeks became available. In addition they made original contributions of their own.
They took over and improved the Hindu number symbols and the idea of positional notation. These numerals (the Hindu-Arabic system of numeration) and the algorithms for operating with them were transmitted to Europe around 1200 and are in use throughout the world today.
Like the Hindus, the Arabs worked freely with irrationals. However they took a backward step in rejecting negative numbers in spite of having learned of them from the Hindus.
In algebra the Arabs contributed first of all the name. The word "algebra" come from the title of a text book in the subject, Hisab al-jabr w'al muqabala, written about 830 by the astronomer/mathematician Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi. This title is sometimes translated as "Restoring and Simplification" or as "Transposition and Cancellation." Our word "algorithm" in a corruption of al-Khowarizmi's name.
[/FONT]

 

[mehrosh]

Every time someone wants to repress women, he points out that women are safer under repression and that it's only for their own good that they are repressed.

Tell me how the non-muslims are safe, the awful statics of rape in America,tell the story......A girl cannot walk down the town at night, fearing rape. THis is liberty of women in the west. You people place comments, but cannot prove your point.

 

[mehrosh]

This thread, I assume was set up to clear the air about Islam and maybe make non-Muslims feel better about the religion?

But to be honest after this thread, I can only say that I just hope that the person who started this thread is not representative of his religion.

It's me who have started this thread, and i am answering each one of you, you keep your questions coming. But now i have began to feel that, once the people recieve there answer they don't want to accept it, rather they pass illogical statments and leave. I have not even found anyone person who can prove Islam as a false religion or can prove the fundamentals of Quran are against humanity. I am still looking, but there are only illogical reasons coming up.....I request people to be more logical and add quality to there posts, rather than bringing up baseless statments on already answered questions

 

[mehrosh]

As I have said before, when the Koran was first written, it was the most advanced social document of its time.

However, Islam and its belief system did not adjust to social change and the old creeds of the Koran are out of step with what is now appropriate for the treatment of women.

Nice statments, here you have got really something interesting, I was waiting for that. Quran was not written, rather revealed, you don't believe in God, but for that you have to define what is God. Coz for someone to deny something, he should be first able to explain it. I can write a book on Woman's right in Islam, but i am sure you don't have the stamina to read it here. Rather sometimes our men worry, whether they have any rights left in Islam or not. Are you prepared, I will start the discussion on Woman's right, on your approval. Thanks for being here. and enjoy your trip

I must also add that the Muslims were definitely much cleaner than Christians of that time, they were emphatic about bathing regularly and other aspects of cleanliness. And, sigh, I have to worship the Muslims for creating Algebra and our modern number system. Oh, yeah, and for preserving what science the Greeks had discovered and saving it for humanity.

But, alas, they were not perfect, are not perfect.

Whether they were clean or dirty that is not our part. But I have no hesitation is quoting the fact, that the muslims have taught the west, and thats what they are using today. Why the Muslims are backwards today, is because they have left behind what they had, and why the west is advance is because they have left behind what they had....Roger Bacon in the West, yet he himself admitted that he was indebted to the Muslims and Islamic civilization. Professor Pruflet in his book The Children of Humanity, speaks of the origin of Western civilization. Roger Bacon studies Arabic and Arab sciences at Oxford University. Unlike his Arab masters in Spain, neither Roger Bacon nor Francis Bacon reserve the right to be accredited with empirical experiment science. Roger Bacon was no more than a carrier of knowledge from the Muslims to Christians Europe, and he was never ashamed to tell his contemporaries that they should learn the Arabic language and Arab Sciences as it was the correct way to true knowledge.

The French philosopher Gustave le Bon stated in his book The Civilization of the Arabs:

“ We must bear in mind that the Arabs – and the Arabs alone – are the ones who guided us to the ancient world of the Greeks and Romans. European universities, including the University of Paris, based their curricula on translations of their books for six hundred years and used their methods of research. The Islamic civilization was one of the most amazing that history has ever known. “.


The Muslims,When they adhere to their religion, they are at the forefront in worldly affairs too, but when they forsake their religion and neglect it, they end up tailing behind others. When the Christians adhered to their deviant religion, they were backward in worldly affairs, but when they burned their churches, killed their monks and separated church from state, they advanced in worldly affairs and in science. The Muslims’ religion motivates them to advance, and they fall behind when they fall away from their religion. The Christians became backward when they adhered to their deviant religion, because a religion that has been distorted by people cannot lead to advancement. They advanced when they left their religion behind. Which method calls for development of this world and strives to make scientific progress and help people in this world and in the Hereafter?

We have seen how some western researchers have been fair towards the Muslims and their religion, and have acknowledged that the Muslims were pioneers in various fields of worldly science. There follow some of their comments so that the questioner and others may see the position of Islam in relation to other civilizations, and understand how Islam urges its followers to look, ponder, strive and invent. We will quote comments from thinkers of different backgrounds.


1 – The French thinker Gustave le Bon says in his famous book The Civilization of the Arabs




“ If the Arabs had taken over France, then Paris would have become like Cordova in Spain, a centre of civilization and knowledge, where the man in the street was able to read and write, and even compose poetry, at a time when the kings of Europe did not even know how to write their names! “


2 – The German Orientalist Sigrid Hoeneker said, in her famous book The Sun of Allaah is Rising in the West, concerning the spread of libraries in the Arab and Muslim world:



“ The libraries grew in every place like plants in good soil. In 891 CE a traveller put the number of public libraries in Baghdad as more than one hundred. Every city had a library where any ordinary man could borrow whatever he wanted, or sit in its halls to study and read whatever he wanted. Translators and writers also gathered in halls that were set aside especially for them, discussing and debating as happens nowadays at academic conferences of the highest level. “


The title of this book, which was originally written in German, means, “The light of Islam illuminates western civilization. This book is filled with the names of Muslim inventors, both Arabs and non-Arabs.


3 – Read these words by a Russian intellectual who explains that this religion served humanity and led to advancement and civilization.
Tolstoy said:



“ There can be no doubt that the Prophet Muhammad was one of the greatest reformers who have rendered great services to human society. It is sufficient to say that he guided an entire nation to the light of truth, and made it incline towards tranquility and peace, and preferred a life of asceticism, and prevented bloodshed and human sacrifice; he showed them the way to advancement and civilization. This is a great achievement that can only be made by one who is given strength; such a man is deserving of respect and honour. “


4 – The Austrian doctor Shabrak said:

“Mankind should be proud to have a man such as Muhammad as a member, for despite being illiterate he was able, ten-plus centuries ago, to bring laws that we and other Europeans would be very happy if we could reach the same level. “


5 – In the field of medicine and surgery, the Muslims played an undeniable role.
The British writer H. G. Wells says in his book Milestones in Human History:

“They advanced in medicine far beyond the Greeks, they studied science and the functions of various parts of the body, and preventative medicine. Many of the treatment methods that they used are still used by us until today. They used anaesthetics for their operations and they used to perform some of the most difficult surgeries that are known. At a time when the church used to forbid the practice of medicine in the expectation that a full recovery could be achieved through religious rituals performed by the bishops, the Arabs had a true knowledge of medicine. “


He also said:



“Every religion that is not suited to civilization should be rejected. I have not found any religion that is suited to civilization except Islam. “


The testimonies are innumerable, but I am quoting only a few here.

 

[mehrosh]

You have very neatly skirted what I was saying. What you are not saying is what KIND of knowledge it is incumbant on Muslims to aquire. Show me three, world renowned Islamic thinkers, from the last 50 years. Not thinkers who are renowned in the Islamic world, but who are highly regarded by the entire world. I highly doubt you can site Salmon Rushdie, although he is indeed, a very clever man.

I am impressed with your reply, as well as your stamina. Well! i am posting in this thread continously, the point I am try to stress hard on is that, please don't judge Islam by looking at the Muslims, rather Judge it by looking at Muhammed. Only than you are welcome to pose your questions. No one judges a car by looking at any other driver, we need a perfect driver to test drive the Car. Right? I know you agree with me. Thankyou, well, as far as knowledge is concerned, I can go into deep detail, on how Islam encourages one to aquire knowledge, but here I will just put forward the example of THE GREATEST SCHOLAR OF ISLAM. And that was, the wife of the Prophet, Aisha, she was consulted in all state affairs, and it is known from here that there was no topic that was talked about in her presence but she knew about it, she is known to be exellent in the study of the stars, and various others. Knowledge in Islam is based on freedom, and responsibility following free will, and a last fruit is belief in tawheed, the Oneness of Allah with the deepest insight

You need not be concerned with my stamina, kind sir. Though a day or two may pass, I will come back to this thread to see how it is going and respond accordingly. I can only ask, "How is your stamina for my responses?"

Whether he did or not, will not have any effect on our discussion, he had appointed people for this purpose.

Yes, how incredibly convenient a tenant of your faith. Strangely, no one mentioned Allah or Islam prior to Muhammed. Islam is making vast claims that have no basis in reality. It is not like the sages of the past can say "yes" or "no" to its bogus claims, therefore the bogus claim stands, as no one can really refute it. No one seems to notice that minor, somewhat trivial, point. It is inconceivable to me that Buddha, Krsna and Jesus, The Christ, would have agreed with Muhammed regarding his claims regarding Islam. No one since, with the exception of the Bab, whom Muslims love to hate, has given any credence to this unsubstantiated claim of Muhammed. One voice, does not make it so, no matter how many believe that voice.

I appreciate your knowledge, but sorry, The message was there from Adam, but hey, why am I telling you all this, when you don't believe in it. We should start from begining, why are you jumping between topics, you don't believe in God right? How can I explain the existance of Islam from the begining when you don't belive in it's sender. I think we should discuss that first, and then come to all this. To disbelieve in God, you need to define it first, because when you disbelieve in something, you atleast need to have some image of it, in your mind. Then I will come back to this topic (promise, not to forget) and please be precise, don't practice double standards.

I disagree. Although, come to think of it, it is a bit of a miracle that it has lasted as long as it has. To me, that only confirms the straightjacket nature of the dogma contained within. Miraculous? Heck, like the Bible, it isn't even very well written.
BTW: Just because a person cannot read or write, does not mean they cannot take part in intelligent conversations. A clever individual could indeed dictate a book. I don't see it as that big a deal, especially when it took Muhammed 23 years to "bring down" the entire, rather thin, volume. Just because someone is illiterate, does not mean they are stupid. I actually believe that Muhammed was a genius. Quite insane, but also a genius. A rather frightening combination.

Here I see another question arising, Is Quran the word of God or not? and this is the third one i think, the first one was, is Muhammed a Prophet, the second, Does God Exists, and this is the last one,...I find your reply to be full of questions rather than ideas, as we have started from Muhammed, I will discuss that first.

I go with a combo of #1 and #2. I feel that it was a deliberate, conscious act, by a man who was both a genius and also certifably insane. Please think of the ramifications of what I am meaning and try to imagine just what an insane genius COULD be capable of. My brain quails at the thought. It would certainly fall within their abilities to create an entirely new religion... but then again, THAT is an assumption.

You have taken the support of many words twisted, but I will assume your assumption about Muhammed to be this "Muhammed didn't recieve any revelation, but he was only too intelligent to dictate the Quran"? am I Right? No I am not going to go on with the discussion until you confirm this. I don't want any hassel bassel later on. I see you too are very intelligent, but I will appreciate if you stay in logical limits and be precise....Don't take me wrong, I am facing many such people who don't know what they are saying.....Thanks and heartly regards.

 

[Nehustan]

The modern number system was created by the Hindu's about 300 years before the Qur'an was written.

I think you will find that the number symbols we use today originate in what today is called India, Al-Hind at the time the symbols came to Arabia, then through them to the West. The Arabs are well aware of this fact as they call the numbers 'Indian', they are slightly different to the numbers we have, but you can still see they source from the same origin...

'The term "Arabic numerals" is used here to refer to a numerical system employing numerals of a style still current throughout the Arabic and Persian-speaking worlds. These numerals were ultimately derived from an early Indian system and came to form the basis of the numerals used today in Europe and throughout most of the Western world. The shape of many of the numerals differs from what in Europe are usually called "Arabic numerals". The numerals are used in a place-notational system, so that the numbers 1 through 21 and 99-105 have the following appearance in true Arabic numerals:

Prior to this, as with the Jews, numbers were represented by the letters of the alphabet, and it was almost certainly this feature that lead to Algebra. The Oral tradition (beit Hebrew or Sufi) and thus 'science' of 'Gematria' or the 'Abjad' system certainly may be considered a form of prtotypical Algebra and certainly explains its origins....​

Abjad letter-numerals are the letters of the Arabic alphabet given numerical values. They could thus be used in various combinations to represent any number from 1 to 1999. It is not a place-notational system, for their value does not depend upon their position relative to one another. Thus the number 652 would be represented by the letters kha', [= 600], nun [= 50], and ba' [= 2], no matter in what order the letters were arranged. The name abjad comes from the first four letters in the sequence to which values 1, 2, 3, and 4 were assigned, that is, letters, alif, ba', jim, and dal. The symbol for zero was derived from Greek astronomical and mathematical manuscripts where a symbol was often used as an abbreviation for the Greek word ouden, meaning "nothing". The letter-numerals for numbers 1 through 50 were the same throughout the Islamic lands, but there were differences between the Western areas and the Eastern when it came to assigning letters to the remaining values.

The most hotly contested symbol throughout the ages has been the cyper...the zero....and by extension the concept of infinity.

 

[mehrosh]

I think you will find that the number symbols we use today originate in what today is called India, Al-Hind at the time the symbols came to Arabia, then through them to the West.

Yes I agree with you, but there are many pieces of a puzzle, to build them up, we need an intelligent mind.
In algebra the Arabs contributed first of all the name. The word "algebra" come from the title of a text book in the subject, Hisab al-jabr w'al muqabala, written about 830 by the astronomer/mathematician Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi. This title is sometimes translated as "Restoring and Simplification" or as "Transposition and Cancellation." Our word "algorithm" in a corruption of al-Khowarizmi's name.
The algebra of the Arabs was entirely rhetorical.


They could solve quadratic equations, recognizing two solutions, possibly irrational, but usually rejected negative solutions. The poet/mathematician Omar Khayyam (1050 - 1130) made significant contributions to the solution of cubic equations by geometric methods involving the intersection of conics.
Like Diophantus and the Hindus, the Arabs also worked with indeterminate equations

Algebra went to Europe after 1500.

The symbol for zero was derived from Greek astronomical and mathematical manuscripts where a symbol was often used as an abbreviation for the Greek word ouden, meaning "nothing".

Zero can also be found in its raw form in the Babylonian period, but it was coined as a numeral, by the Muslims.

 

[mehrosh]

I would request my dear friends to stay on the TOPIC

 

[mehrosh]

Kindly post your Preceptions about ISLAM in a questionary form so that we can do justice to each one .

I will be greatly thankful

Regards Mehrosh

 

[thinker_of_elves]

Hmm , this is a v interesting thread.
I think the poster sounds sincere. But has very bad techniques.

I think a couple of links might be useful.
http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation_index.php
I think this was posted earlier..the Qur'an

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html
As it says - A sceptics interpretation..very very interesting

http://answering-islam.org.uk/

 

[mehrosh]

Hmm , this is a v interesting thread.
I think the poster sounds sincere. But has very bad techniques.

I think a couple of links might be useful.
http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation_index.php
I think this was posted earlier..the Qur'an

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html
As it says - A sceptics interpretation..very very interesting

http://answering-islam.org.uk/

Thankyou, for your kind response, and compliments. Well, sometimes truth becomes hard to swallow, but if I sound sincere to you, it is your duty, that if you post, be sincere with your posting. The last two links are really very useful.Islam is without doubt the best religion but the media is in the hands of the
westerners who are afraid of Islam. The media is continuously broadcasting
and printing information against Islam. They either provide misinformation
about Islam, misquote Islam or project a point out of proportion, if any. The two websites you have linked are a part of this propoganda. You are welcome if you have any preceptions about Islam, posting such post will not do justice to this topic. Infact I have found only two or three people till now, who really have stuff to talk about. Thanks and regards

 

[thinker_of_elves]

Thankyou, for your kind response, and compliments. Well, sometimes truth becomes hard to swallow, but if I sound sincere to you, it is your duty, that if you post, be sincere with your posting. The last two links are really very useful.Islam is without doubt the best religion but the media is in the hands of the
westerners who are afraid of Islam. The media is continuously broadcasting
and printing information against Islam. They either provide misinformation
about Islam, misquote Islam or project a point out of proportion, if any. The two websites you have linked are a part of this propoganda. You are welcome if you have any preceptions about Islam, posting such post will not do justice to this topic. Infact I have found only two or three people till now, who really have stuff to talk about. Thanks and regards

I'm afraid my problem, is that you don't really answer peoples questions.
You quote the Qur'an. Which is irrelevant to people, like me, who do not believe.

You say judging a religion, by it's followers is wrong and liken that to a driver. This makes no sense. There is no other way to judge a religion other than to observe how it's people behave. The ridiculous aftermath of the infamous cartoons is just one example.

You go on about how it's good to have women covered up, to avoid people getting sexual thrills and preventing rape. Whatever happened to freedom of expression? Muslims are slaves to their religion. Their women doubly so.

 

[mehrosh]

I'm afraid my problem, is that you don't really answer peoples questions.
You quote the Qur'an. Which is irrelevant to people, like me who do not believe.

Don't worry, you will find me friendly and fulfilling the criteria in which you want to discuss. If you see there are people on this thread, whom I am answering in the same way. You are welcome with what ever you have. Unless and until you discuss, rather than attacking.

You say judging a religion, by it's followers is wrong and liken that to a driver. This makes no sense. There is no other way to judge a religion other than to observe how it's people behave. The ridiculous aftermath of the infamous cartoons is just one example.

Yes, brother (if you mind me calling you brother, tell me I will change it) you are right, you judge a religion by looking at it's followers, but what will you do when it's followers are only followers for name sake, they don't follow the religion, but only claim that they do, they infact don't know the ABC of the religion they claim to follow. If you have read my posts, I compared judging Islam by it's followers with judging a car by placing a person behind it's steering who doesn't know how to drive. In such a case if you judge Islam by it's followers, sorry to say, but you will be doing injustice to Islam. If you really want to judge Islam by it's followers, judge it by looking at the true Muslim, and that is Muhammed.

You go on about how it's good to have women covered up, to avoid people getting sexual thrills and preventing rape. Whatever happened to freedom of expression? Islams are slaves to their religion. Their women doubly so.

No Muslims are not slaves of their religion, Islam tells you to accept the truth if you like or leave it if you don't. There is no compulsion in religion. Freedom and Liberty are like the wings of Islam, but it is not important to leave modesty in order to aquire Freedom. Let me know what do you think is the problem with women being covered, according to me, only if you cover a gem , you can transport it easily without being robbed. I extent my heartly welcome to you and feel free to comment or pose questions. Regards, Mehrosh