Perceptions of Islam

[DakotaGypsy]

OK. Now what about takfir?

 

[Nehustan]

Good point, and a very current problem. Myself I will never call someone an unbeliever unless they declare themself one directly to me, and even then I would try and reason with them. Allah sees into hearts...sees faith...man cannot.

 

[Maxist]

I must admit that I cannot argue with it. While I do think that it is wrong, that is their culture I am certainly not going to do anything about it. We cannot go on Policing the World, and yet we are going to go and do somthing about it. If it is that improtaint to America, then we should let him come here. He should not have converted if he did not want this to happen, at least publically. To tell you the truthe I have no sympothy for him.

 

[mr.guy]

If it is that improtaint to America, then we should let him come here.

No worries; last i heard italy might pick him up.

Afghanistan's fatal compromise: Abdul Rahman's escape from charges of abandoning Islam isn't a good-news story for those hoping for effective rule of law in Afghanistan.

-exerpt from Dan Garner's article for the Ottawa Citizen.

So what was this remarkable compromise, this reconciliation of modernity and Islamic feudalism? Very simple, really. The conservatives wrote all their key principles into the constitution. The liberals did the same. And everyone agreed not to mention that the result was total incoherence.

The theocrats got the coveted first sentence of the preamble, which begins, "We the people of Afghanistan, with firm faith in God Almighty and relying on His merciful law, and believing in the Sacred religion of Islam ..."

They also got Article One. It begins, "Afghanistan is an Islamic republic ..."
And they got Article Two, which states, "The religion of the state of the republic of Afghanistan is the sacred religion of Islam. Followers of other religions are free to exercise their faith and perform their religious rites within the limits of the provision of law."

What limits might those be? Article Three declares, "In Afghanistan, no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam."

That much looks like the constitution of a standard-issue theocracy. But liberal democrats got a line added to the preamble about "observing" and "respecting" the United Nations charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. They also got Articles Six, Seven, Eight, 22, 23, 24 and others that declare Afghanistan must protect fundamental human rights as established by national and international law. These statements are as strong as any language found in Canada's own Charter of Rights.

-rest of article here

 

[tkdrocks]

Based upon my reading of this thread and others, I now have some new perceptions of Islam.

1. Muslims (as the followers of most religions) like to consider themselves as fundamentalist believers or followers. However, the definition of fundamentalist is rather subjective. The friendly members of this forum define fundamental Islam as adhering closely to the Koran; they also believe that Muslims like Osama Bin Laden are operating outside of Islam.
2. Some Muslims consider themselves as fundamentalist believers and adhere closely to the Koran, but take some further ‘guidance’ from the Hadith. Some of the Hadith following Muslims become disconnected from the majority. Generally, some Imam will make a decree (Fatwah) about something found in a Hadith and it becomes a law for those Muslims to follow.
3. All Muslims appear to recognize the Hadith as part of the Islamic religion, at least historically. Thus it is difficult for many of them to disavow the teaching of a cleric. (After all, these clerics devote their entire life to the study of Islam).
4. Consequently, many various types of Muslims that have very different beliefs consider themselves to be fundamentalist believers and followers of Islam.

Here is the rub. My impression is that Muslims do not exactly agree on what Islam is and the doctrines that should be followed. If Muslims are unsure about how and what they believe, how can westerners be expected to understand the Muslim culture?

Again, I blame this on the ideal of revealed religion along with the advent of sacred texts.

 

[tkdrocks]

Tell me how the non-muslims are safe, the awful statics of rape in America,tell the story......A girl cannot walk down the town at night, fearing rape. THis is liberty of women in the west. You people place comments, but cannot prove your point.

Actually rape (as well as every other violent crime statistic) has greatly decreased over the last 20 years in the U.S. The places in the US that still have higher crime rates are isolated to inner-city areas. That leaves the vast majority of the country well below the international violent crime rate and even ranks near Saudi Arabia in 'reported' violent crime.

Now lets see, that is there any country which has implemented the Islamic Law, yes there is, and that is only Saudia Arabia, now type in Google and search this criteria "which country has the lowest rate of rape", the answer comes out as Saudia. Doubt it, go ahead.

The interesting thing about statistics is that there has to be data to collect in order for there to be accuracy. In the case of rape and Shariah law. 4 eyewitnesses are required in order to gain a conviction in a rape case. If a woman makes an accusation of rape against a man (or men) she must produce 4 eyewitnesses. However, by coming forward, she is admitting that she has had sex outside of marriage. As a result, she might get stoned for that (sin?).

The result is that women almost never come forward in rape cases in Saudi Arabia or any other Muslim government. It would be suicide. So you end up with artificially low rapes reported (almost none).

In western countries we use eyewitnesses to support a case, but more heavily rely on evidence such as DNA. I do not believe that such provisions are possible under 'pure' Shariah law. It tends to be rather immutable (unchangeable).

By the way, both of my daughters are black belts (extra insurance). They feel very safe walking down the streets of the USA or any other country for that matter.

 

[TashaN]

My impression is that Muslims do not exactly agree on what Islam is and the doctrines that should be followed. If Muslims are unsure about how and what they believe, how can westerners be expected to understand the Muslim culture?

Thanks for your questions ...

First of all, All Muslims consider Quran and the Sunnah (Hadiths and doing of prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him") as the main source of the religion. Quran havn't changed ever, and it will not be so, but the problem with Hadiths is that, There are many false hadiths. For instance, someone may say the prophet said ...., but actually it may be a false one.

Then, you may ask me, how we gonna know which one is right and which one is wrong?

My answer would be that, There were authorised and trustworthy scholars who have collected the right hadiths and if you asked about one hadith, so they will mention for you all guys who heard this hadith from his time until they reach to the one who hear it from prophet Mohammed. If one of those who is in the series of hearing this hadith was a guy who used to forget, lie (even once in his life), so those people who were collecting the hadiths weren't considering this particular hadith (Do you see how accurate is that ! ). Neverhtheless, there are some false hadiths still in the air but if you wanna know which is right and which is wrong, just go to a hadith searcher and write a a word of this hadith and it will tell you whether it exist (it means it's right hadith) or it will not mention it in the searcher (it's false one), but some other sites will give you the result whether this is a right hadith or false one.

Now, we go for your other question about, If Muslims are unsure about how and what they believe, how can westerners be expected to understand the Muslim culture?

The answer is that, all Muslims (or most) in this forum are normal muslims with a little knowledge about the main law in Islam in details, they might just search for the information in the net or in their books just like you but they have a background which will help them in their searching for it. Therefore, don't blame them, they are not scholars, they are just trying to help, but of course, they are speaking for themselves but they don't offecially represent Islam. Me myself, i learn about Islam everyday because there are many things which we don't face it as muslims in our life, but some people might be interested to know about it, so we just HELP them to understand but we don't gurantee that we will give the right answer 100%.

Remember that, islam is not inside a bag we hold with us "Muslims" and we show it to the one who want so, Islam is a system of life and i don't think that you will find a muslim who is aware of everything unless he studied it well for years,if he was a cleric or a scholar, other than that, he just represent himself, and what he have been taught. Also remember that muslims differ in many issues because this is the greatness of Islam. There are small issues that is not from the core of the islamic law, things which we can apply in a country and can't apply in another. Therefore, sometimes, if the culture of a particular country didn't conflict with the teaching of Islam so it will be part of the system.

One more thing, there is no such a thing called "Muslim culture". You can find an american muslim, Asian, African, European, Israelian, etc, and everyone of them hold his own culture but if you were walking beside one of them (you and him forom the same place), the only diferent is that, when the time for praying comes, you might go to the church (just for example if you were a christian) and he will go to the Masjid "mosque", of course plus some other differences.

Again, I blame this on the ideal of revealed religion along with the advent of sacred texts.

So you mean that you condemn all revealed religions just because it may conflict with the current "secular" law for most of countries around the world or you meant somthing else?

 

[TashaN]

Ok my friend, we have a misconception here, i hope that you will concentrate with me and be pateint and i hope that my hand will will not type a long passage like the pervious one and sorry for that.

In the case of rape and Shariah law. 4 eyewitnesses are required in order to gain a conviction in a rape case. If a woman makes an accusation of rape against a man (or men) she must produce 4 eyewitnesses. However, by coming forward, she is admitting that she has had sex outside of marriage. As a result, she might get stoned for that (sin?).

First of all, the case which you talked about is not for rape but for adultry.

For instance, if you saw a man lying in the bed with a woman (who is not lawful for him in marriage) sleeping togther, even naked, if you went to the judge claiming that you saw them bla bla, if you didn't see them doing it by your own eyes seeing thier sexual parts in sex situation (you plus 3 more which means 4 eyewitnesses) so the judge will punish you instead whether by some lashes or sending you to jail for that claim. They might punish this couple with some kind of punishment but not stoning of course.

Now, If a woman makes an accusation of rape against a man (or men), she must NOT produce 4 eyewitnesses but .....​

I'll give you this verse from Quran to read their punishment:

[33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; (Quran 5:33)

Now, we can say:

The result is that women will, INDEED come forward in rape cases in Saudi Arabia or any other Muslim government. It would NOT be suicide for her but it will be the end of those who betrayed the safty of the community. So you end up with artificially low rapes reported (almost none).

In western countries we use eyewitnesses to support a case, but more heavily rely on evidence such as DNA. I do not believe that such provisions are possible under 'pure' Shariah law. It tends to be rather immutable (unchangeable).

It's possible under 'pure' Shariah law, and believe me, they are using it the same as western countries

By the way, both of my daughters are black belts (extra insurance). They feel very safe walking down the streets of the USA or any other country for that matter.

May God save your daughters from all the evil .. :hug:

 

[tkdrocks]

So you mean that you condemn all revealed religions just because it may conflict with the current "secular" law for most of countries around the world or you meant somthing else?

I do not condemn revealed religions because they conflict with current "secular" law. Rather I condemn them because they are "revealed". These religions are based upon somebody else's eyewitness account. Having "sacred" texts that even the most devout cannot agree upon only complicates the matter.

This occurs with Christianity and Islam (of which I am neither). Jehovah, Allah or whomever are relying on antiquated texts that are copied by humans (which are corruptable and subject to their own agendas). This creators of these gods have done a good of fooling the masses, but if the creator wants to be known and worshipped (I guess), he should show himself to all, not just a few who may be discredited.

 

[tkdrocks]

Thanks for your questions ...


My answer would be that, There were authorised and trustworthy scholars who have collected the right hadiths and if you asked about one hadith, so they will mention for you all guys who heard this hadith from his time until they reach to the one who hear it from prophet Mohammed. If one of those who is in the series of hearing this hadith was a guy who used to forget, lie (even once in his life), so those people who were collecting the hadiths weren't considering this particular hadith (Do you see how accurate is that ! ). Neverhtheless, there are some false hadiths still in the air but if you wanna know which is right and which is wrong, just go to a hadith searcher and write a a word of this hadith and it will tell you whether it exist (it means it's right hadith) or it will not mention it in the searcher (it's false one), but some other sites will give you the result whether this is a right hadith or false one.

It would seem that belief is very subjective. Allah is not getting his message through to everyone on the same level.

Remember that, islam is not inside a bag we hold with us "Muslims" and we show it to the one who want so, Islam is a system of life and i don't think that you will find a muslim who is aware of everything unless he studied it well for years,if he was a cleric or a scholar, other than that, he just represent himself, and what he have been taught. Also remember that muslims differ in many issues because this is the greatness of Islam. There are small issues that is not from the core of the islamic law, things which we can apply in a country and can't apply in another. Therefore, sometimes, if the culture of a particular country didn't conflict with the teaching of Islam so it will be part of the system.

Perhaps, there is not a single Muslim culture, however, Islam pervades within each of the societies that it encounters. If, as it spreads, it is not exactly clear as to which part is important and which is not, a corrupted Islam will be spread and is being spread. Again the original message of Allah via Muhommed is not making it to the people.

I am still feeling that my perceptions are correct.

 

[TashaN]

I do not condemn revealed religions because they conflict with current "secular" law. Rather I condemn them because they are "revealed". These religions are based upon somebody else's eyewitness account. Having "sacred" texts that even the most devout cannot agree upon only complicates the matter.

Do u prefer God's law, whether islamic or christian one for instance or man made law?

Do you believe in God?

 

[TashaN]

It would seem that belief is very subjective. Allah is not getting his message through to everyone on the same level.

So what if they didn't get at the same level?

Do you think yourself in heaven?

Nothing easy in this life my friend, it's part of the test.

Read what God told us about this issue:

.....To each among you have We prescribed a Law and an Open Way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single People, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you; so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; (Quran 5:48)

If, as it spreads, it is not exactly clear as to which part is important and which is not, a corrupted Islam will be spread and is being spread. Again the original message of Allah via Muhommed is not making it to the people.

Why do you think so? and how do you know whether it's clear or not? have you been a muslim before for instance or it just some thoughts you have about Muslims which you think it's about Islam itself?

I am still feeling that my perceptions are correct.

I can't do anything toward it, i'm just trying to help, in case you had enough, i'll stop.

You are most welcome anytime ...

May peace be upon you ..

 

[tkdrocks]

Do u prefer God's law, whether islamic or christian one for instance or man made law?

Do you believe in God?

Question 1: I believe that all laws are man made. Some are merely wrapped in religion and passed on via 'revelation' in order to make them more marketable.

Question 2: I do not deny the possibility of a higher power. However, I do not believe that there is some diety out there that is concerned with the day-to-day lives of humans including eating habits, prayer habits, etc. In fact, a concept of a god that requires daily attention would be a god that is very insecure with his image.

 

[tkdrocks]

The Truth: Thanks for being patient in our our discussion.

.....To each among you have We prescribed a Law and an Open Way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single People, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you; so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; (Quran 5:48)

This is an interesting verse. It would be even more interesting if the punishment for not following Allah was not eternal punishment in Hell. This does not seem to be very 'Open'.

 

[TashaN]

You are most welcome ..

I do not deny the possibility of a higher power.

I congratulate you for that, any wise huamn being won't deny a higher power ..

However, I do not believe that there is some diety out there that is concerned with the day-to-day lives of humans including eating habits, prayer habits, etc. In fact, a concept of a god that requires daily attention would be a god that is very insecure with his image.

I agree with you, God doesn't need us, otherwise, if he do so, he wouldn't about to be the God of the universe.

We need God, because he created us. Nevertheless, human beings couldn't have lived if God didn't teach our father Adam how to live. He (God) is there when we need him. He gave us a free and an open way whether to choose to believe in him, or not (even though we are required to believe in him). Just in the afterlife, that would be somthing else. Everybody will get what he/she deserve and who so ever didn't get his right so God will take his right from the one who took his right, this is justice. I guess the topic is going to a sort of God debate , don't you think so? This would be another huge topic.

 

[UKSaiyan]

V Nice Thread!!
-For me...I've learnt a few things about Islam... I can see why it's grossly misunderstood - but nevertheless I can see why it's such a "magical" religion !!

-hmm.. I can see a few stubborn people on this thread who do not accept answers that I thought were rational and well written by my fellow muslim friends.

O'WeLL... keep up the good work...

 

[c0da]

hmm.. I can see a few stubborn people on this thread who do not accept answers that I thought were rational and well written by my fellow muslim friends.

Have you read through the whole thread? I thought some of the answers were a bit scary.

And welcome to the forums!

 

[A. Leaf]

I bet its gonna be one of these top ten misconceptions:

1. Muslims are violent, terrorists and/or extremists.
2. Islam oppresses women.
3. Muslims worship a different God.
4. Islam was spread by the sword and intolerant of other faiths.
5. All Muslims are Arabs
6. The Nation of Islam is a Muslim group.
7. All Muslim men marry four wives.
8. Muslims are a barbaric, backward people.
9. Muhammad was the founder of Islam and Muslims worship him.
10. Muslims don't believe in Jesus or any other prophets.

1) No, A few extremists within the religion that beak the divine rule of Love, which i'm sure hurts Muhammed real bad.
2) Some are some are not, depending how backward the male counterpart is within the head of the family, considering Man and Woman both equal, both with different gifts in the physical world. Plus I entered the physiacl world and am sitting here answering these questions with the thanks of the Bilogical genius of a Woman and that's not taking anything away from my old man.
3) No, Allah, God, the Father, Lord Almighty, Creator, are they not all the same?
4)Created in the name of Love, spread with the Sword no different than all the other major faiths.
5)No
6)Nation of Islam??
7)No, how they treat them I'm sure is in severe instances no different to the way women are treated in other faiths, breaking the divine rule of love yet again.
8)No, just the extremists who have let Muhammed down.
9)Yes and No, the extremists just want an excuse just like in any other faith.
10) They believe in Jesus as a prophet, will not accept him as the son.
Do they believe in prophets apart from Muhammed, some do some don't.

 

[BFD_Zayl]

well, i have a few muslim friends and all of them are great. i think the only possible thing that i dont like about islam is that some of the leaders of middle eastern countries misuse it... they use fear to control the people for their own perverted needs. but thats a problem with the governments over there, not islam.

 

[TashaN]

1) No, A few extremists within the religion that beak the divine rule of Love, which i'm sure hurts Muhammed real bad.
2) Some are some are not, depending how backward the male counterpart is within the head of the family, considering Man and Woman both equal, both with different gifts in the physical world. Plus I entered the physiacl world and am sitting here answering these questions with the thanks of the Bilogical genius of a Woman and that's not taking anything away from my old man.
3) No, Allah, God, the Father, Lord Almighty, Creator, are they not all the same?
4)Created in the name of Love, spread with the Sword no different than all the other major faiths.
5)No
6)Nation of Islam??
7)No, how they treat them I'm sure is in severe instances no different to the way women are treated in other faiths, breaking the divine rule of love yet again.
8)No, just the extremists who have let Muhammed down.
9)Yes and No, the extremists just want an excuse just like in any other faith.
10) They believe in Jesus as a prophet, will not accept him as the son.
Do they believe in prophets apart from Muhammed, some do some don't.

Wow, i'm so happy that you got to know all the answers almost.

For number 9, According to islam, Mohammed is not the founder of Islam but he was the last prophet in islam because all prophets are muslims which means they surrender their will to God by obeying him and worshipping him.

We believe in all prophets before Mohammed "peace be upon him".

Thanks for your contrbution ..