Poll: Is God All-Good?

[firedragon]

I did. I have. How on EARTH do you think I became an atheist in the first place?

I mean... after a lifetime of brainwashing into the Xian Cult, of course... I was born an atheist, not having been born with faith in gods. That had to be forced into the defenseless mind of a child.

But. I got better. I researched the origins, and content of the bible. It de-converted me quite well. Took awhile, though.

Alright. Have a great day.

 

[Trailblazer]

Judgment calls without all the information seldom come out right.

That's very true and that is why Jesus said to judge not lest ye be judged. You did not know that woman's feelings because you never walked in her moccasins, so you cannot possibly understand how she thinks and feels. We are all very different. There is no magic formula that works for everyone.

Finally, let us not focus on the hurt. Let us focus on the Solutions. There was a lady whose dog died. She had this dog for 18 years. This was a very old dog. It was time for this dog, like all God's children, to move on. This lady was sad, depressed, and quit talking to everyone. I had a long talk with her. WE are all eternal so we expect things around us to be eternal, yet everything in this physical world is borrowed. Nothing is forever.

The cure: I told her to quit moping and go get her a puppy. There is nothing like youth that will make one feel happy and young. She got a puppy and the next day came back happy. She said that puppy had so much energy she did not have time to be sad.

Maybe that worked for her but that does not mean it will work for everyone. There is no magic formula that works for everyone.

One should not be clingy. Let the wonderful souls around us continue their journey. When that wonderful cat must leave, start anew. A wonderful needy little kitten is what the doctor ordered.

Love is not clingy. The doctor does not order the same medicine for everyone.

We all have the power to choose what we deem important. We can choose to value the hurt, problems and adversity, crying and spreading a shadow of hurt and gloom to others OR we can choose to work at Solutions. Which is the Higher Level? Which is the better Path on your journey?

We can choose what we deem important but we cannot choose how we feel. Feelings just are. Sometimes there are no solutions and that is why some people commit suicide.

There is no better Path. There are just different Paths. Everyone does not choose your Path.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

I think your fourth option should be rewritten to say "I don't have a reason to believe in God, but if I did he would be evil."

 

[Trailblazer]

This is not exactly what I had in mind when I said it was "easier." I meant it was very much easier not to get caught up in unhealthy ways of trying to deal with your problems... like trying to put the burden of them off on someone else's shoulders (even an imaginary someone) rather than simply shouldering the burden yourself. There is far less negative thinking to be had when you aren't looking to cast blame on someone else, but instead treat occurrences as they come, without wasting time in failing to act/react because you are too busy lamenting that some other party is to blame.

That is generally true, but if one blames oneself for everything even when they are not to blame, that can result in negative thinking about oneself. I used to be a blamer many, many years ago, but now I tend to always blame myself, even when something is not my fault. That results in negative thinking about myself. Imo, it is better to think negatively about oneself than about others, but it can be overdone, just like anything in life, and it can lead to depression.

I do not see what additional "responsibility" there is on the part of a believer in maintaining their belief. Can you elaborate? I can't think of a single thing a believer is more responsible for... except perhaps for following a code of conduct that has been prescribed for them. Beyond this, I can't think of a single thing.

That depends upon what religion you belong to. The Baha'i Faith has expectations that are very high, if one is to really follow the teachings and take them seriously. Not only are the laws somewhat strict, we are expected to do a lot more than just sit around "worshiping God." The job of building a New World Order has been placed by God squarely on our shoulders. It is not just a Sunday service, it is a lifestyle.

This is all very true and has been seen time and time again among people. All I am saying (as you also seem to imply) is that it is a very unhealthy mindset to be in. It causes a lot of perceived "hurt feelings," it opens one up to feeling entitled to a better situation, and it opens one up to resentment of this "other thing" that you imagine is keeping you from that better situation. It is just bad all the way around, and I don't know of a single person who would say they like people who are complainers and cavilers, who never place an ounce of responsibility for any hardship they encounter on their own shoulders. We know those extreme cases to be bad, and I don't know if there is ANY good to be had in blaming someone else for things that have no clear guilt-component.

I agree that blaming others is not a good way to live. However, sometimes hardships cannot be overcome. It might sound simple to you, but you can only understand others and what they have to endure if you have walked a mile in their moccasins. I share my life from time to time on forums but I would never weigh down anyone with my problems, which is why I keep to myself for the most part. Most people expect others to be happy all the time, they are clueless as to what some people have to endure on a day-to-day basis.

I do not think we are fully responsible for all our hardships, because nobody has complete control over their life situation and free will that has many constraints. Clearly, some people just got dealt a better hand than other people, genetically and environmentally. I do hold God accountable for that because it is God who determines our fate, and we can only alter our fate if that fate is impending, not if it is irrevocable. We have free will to make moral choices, but we cannot change our genetics or the family we were born into. We just have to try to make the best of it, but clearly some people have to struggle a lot more than others and some people struggle hardly at all. Somehow that does not seem fair, and if there was any reason not to believe in God this would be the reason, not because of lack of evidence.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

That is generally true, but if one blames oneself for everything even when they are not to blame, that can result in negative thinking about oneself.

And you see, here is where I would point you to your myopic way of thinking. Because I said "always looking to blame others" was unhealthy, you jumped STRAIGHT to the idea that I felt you should always blame yourself. Why? Why did you jump directly to that? From my perspective, it is far more important that people realize that in a great many situations, THERE IS NO ONE TO BE BLAMED. The most obvious examples are hardships like inclement/damaging weather. People will cast around, still looking for "blame" when a tornado destroys their house. Is it God? Is it the heathens around them who incurred God's wrath? These people are being foolish. There is no one to be blamed. Stop looking.

We just have to try to make the best of it, but clearly some people have to struggle a lot more than others and some people struggle hardly at all. Somehow that does not seem fair, and if there was any reason not to believe in God this would be the reason, not because of lack of evidence.

My belief is that some of the time, whether one is "struggling" or not is actually matter of perspective. A lot of people seem to feel like they are battling some unseen enemy, and so they feel like the issues they encounter are "personal." This describes A LOT of people I have encountered. They are looking at it wrong. Many of those things are simply temporary situations that one simply has to overcome. Lamenting that you have to go through the process of overcoming does NOTHING to get you through it faster/easier. Absolutely nothing.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I am addressing first the maximality of goodness of our world not depending on us. Will see afterwards whether we contribute to an already suboptimal situation or not.

Then I guess we're starting from a different end. First I want to work on my contribution.

... First take the log out of your own eye. (Jesus)

Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country. (JFK)

 

[Muffled]

I believe evil does not come from God.

 

[Muffled]

To take your second sentence first: There is a tradition about Saint Teresa of Avila that goes like this: According to tradition, Teresa fell off her donkey while journeying to visit one of her convents--causing her to land in the mud and dirty her Carmelite habit. With her quick, fiery Spanish temper, Teresa looked up to heaven and said to God, “If this is how you treat your friends, no wonder you don’t have many.”

The first sentence is a question/challenge that comes up. There are different answers, quite a few unsatisfying to me, that are given.

One frame of reference that does work for me is to consider that we will not see the whole picture. We of course judge good by our standards. I believe unasked for suffering is redemptive - that one day we will know how transitory pain played a necessary role in our lasting joy.

I believe that reminds me of Jonah because the plant shading him was removed. Some lessons have to be learned the hard way.

 

[Muffled]

I personnaly don't worship any deity. The only being I would call a god would have to be omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent in addition to be interested in humans and living creatures in general. Since there is such a thing as "evil", there is no such being. It's a basic demonstration of evidence of abscence. I don't believe in or worship fantasy characters.

Of course that's my personnal definition of god and it's only one amongst many. I suppose it's possible for some people's deities to exist though they would not be one of the above and i would not adopt them as my own deity. Some might have dubious morality like many god-kings in history or a variety of deities like Zeus or Yaweh. Some people's deity are actually amoral because they don't really exist or aren't conscious, but are more some sort of philosophical concept like perfection, love, wisdom or nature.

I believe one ought to recognize that the price one pays for the removal of evil is that you can't do it anymore. That is coming for those who want it.

 

[viole]

Then I guess we're starting from a different end. First I want to work on my contribution.

... First take the log out of your own eye. (Jesus)

Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country. (JFK)

could be, but now I am interested to know what you think. Since we have bad things coming from man, and bad things coming from nature, it should not be a problem for theists to address both. i hope at least.

so, what is theists view on natural disasters, children with cancer, etc? Do they make the world worse, equally good or better?

simple question. I will be happy with any answer.

ciao

- viole

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Alright. Have a great day.

I always have a nice day--- for I do not have a Magic Sky Thing, who I must fear, and I never have to stroke anyone's massively over-blown ego with mental telepathy, to avoid eternal torment.

Life is GOOD.

 

[Milton Platt]

Supposedly, God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent (all-good).

Since we're focusing on the last one, there's supposedly the problem of evil for the last one.

My church is splitting due to the whole gay thing. My cat is probably dying (no eye in one eye, blurry eyed in another, can't eat much and stumbling around). And despite spending money advertising and despite being pretty okay in terms of skill with self-employed gig, I can't seem to break through (most calls I do get about computers are either solicitations to phish for my info, calls that are for problems completely out of my depth like making actual glass for the computer, or people who call when I'm visiting family for Christmas).

I'm not gonna discuss how much of this I could probably fix, but rather use it as an object lesson for the study of whether God is all-good or not.

To me, I'm pretty certain God exists (not only from the personal changes in my life, but also because of philosophical reasons), but right now I'm only not sure how good he is. In fact I'm pretty mad at God.

Didn't vote in your poll because there were possibilities not listed.
Sorry to hear you are stressing, though.
As to philosophical reasons to believe in a god,,,,you can speculate about a god with philosophy, but you cannot "prove existence" with it.

 

[Skwim]

I believe evil does not come from God.

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

.​

 

[Bird123]

That's very true and that is why Jesus said to judge not lest ye be judged. You did not know that woman's feelings because you never walked in her moccasins, so you cannot possibly understand how she thinks and feels. We are all very different. There is no magic formula that works for everyone.

Maybe that worked for her but that does not mean it will work for everyone. There is no magic formula that works for everyone.

Love is not clingy. The doctor does not order the same medicine for everyone.

We can choose what we deem important but we cannot choose how we feel. Feelings just are. Sometimes there are no solutions and that is why some people commit suicide.

There is no better Path. There are just different Paths. Everyone does not choose your Path.

Your quote:There is no better Path. There are just different Paths. Everyone does not choose your Path.[/QUOTE]
My Answer: Your journey has never ever been up to me. On the other hand, interaction is key to everyone's learning. I make no demands, conditions or threats as religion in some cases. I merely point to the Light and the Real Truth. What you do with all that is entirely up to you.

God places Truth and knowledge all around us so that we might Discover and Learn when we are ready. I merely copy God in my own way.

Your quote:We can choose what we deem important but we cannot choose how we feel. Feelings just are.
My Answer: Are they?? WE have two halves. The Reason half and the feeling half. One should always lead with the reason half. Why? If one leads with the feeling half one could get lost in a sea of emotions. It's never fun being lost.

Sure people react to things. On the other hand, isn't it better to Think first the Act rather than merely reacting?? Could there be a lesson in all this??

Your quote:Maybe that worked for her but that does not mean it will work for everyone. There is no magic formula that works for everyone.
My Answer: Are you really blind to what I was saying: Work on Solutions!!! Focus on Results!! Learn along that path!

Your quote:You did not know that woman's feelings because you never walked in her moccasins, so you cannot possibly understand how she thinks and feels.
My Answer: Did you know the TRUE Love of my life developed lung cancer and never smoked? She died of the lung cancer.

I had two choices. 1. I could be angry, sad, morning and crying of what I lost, spreading this to everyone around me or. 2. I could celebrate the wonderful times we had. I could be happy for I would never be who I am today without her. Though she might no longer be around, she will never really be gone.

WE are all eternal spirits. We think in terms of forever because that is who we really are regardless of this physical world. Most every couple one dies first. It is a fact most ignore because we all think in terms of forever.

There comes a time when one must move on. Which of my two choices is the best choice?

You see, so many times when people hurt they hold onto the hurt instead of seeing what it really is. What are those results in feelings? Reason and Intellect will keep one moving forward if one applies it. That is for everyone.

Still, it's Living our lessons. How much is there to Discover around all this? Is it really such a crime for me to point toward the Light?

That's what I see. It's very clear.

 

[MonkeyFire]

The center of time is a bottomless pit, the outsides (alpha and omega) are the sweet spots.

 

[Trailblazer]

My quote:We can choose what we deem important but we cannot choose how we feel. Feelings just are.
Your Answer: Are they?? WE have two halves. The Reason half and the feeling half. One should always lead with the reason half. Why? If one leads with the feeling half one could get lost in a sea of emotions. It's never fun being lost.

I agree we should lead with reason, but that is not always possible for everyone and feelings also need to be acknowledged, not suppressed.

Sure people react to things. On the other hand, isn't it better to Think first the Act rather than merely reacting?? Could there be a lesson in all this??

There is a lesson in everything but that does not make the situation any less painful.

My quote:You did not know that woman's feelings because you never walked in her moccasins, so you cannot possibly understand how she thinks and feels.
Your Answer: Did you know the TRUE Love of my life developed lung cancer and never smoked? She died of the lung cancer.

I had two choices. 1. I could be angry, sad, morning and crying of what I lost, spreading this to everyone around me or. 2. I could celebrate the wonderful times we had. I could be happy for I would never be who I am today without her. Though she might no longer be around, she will never really be gone.

Sorry for your loss. I have not lost my husband yet but he is 10 years my senior, so I expect it, but who knows? The way I am living I might be the first one to go.

YOU could make that choice but not everyone is like you. All people deal with loss differently. That is my point.
Also, pet loss is different from human loss, and for some people it is even more difficult.

WE are all eternal spirits. We think in terms of forever because that is who we really are regardless of this physical world. Most every couple one dies first. It is a fact most ignore because we all think in terms of forever.

I believe that we are eternal souls but not everyone believes that.

There comes a time when one must move on.

Everyone has to determine when that time is, for themselves. It cannot be forced.

 

[PearlSeeker]

could be, but now I am interested to know what you think. Since we have bad things coming from man, and bad things coming from nature, it should not be a problem for theists to address both. i hope at least.

so, what is theists view on natural disasters, children with cancer, etc? Do they make the world worse, equally good or better?

simple question. I will be happy with any answer.

ciao

- viole

OK. Bad things from man (moral evil) is the price of free will. Cruelty of nature (physical evil) is a lot more difficult to explain. I haven't found a good answer yet. Some known answers I could think of:

• Physical evil is a natural consequence of the metaphysical evil. Only God is absolutely perfect. Everything else can only evolve through stages of perfection and thus at some stage experiencing the pain of growth and longing for perfection. The price of existence and awareness.
• Karma.
• The fall of man.
• Work of gnostic Demiurge.
• Forces of darkness affecting also the physical plane.
• There is a purpose but beyond our human understanding.

 

[firedragon]

I always have a nice day--- for I do not have a Magic Sky Thing, who I must fear, and I never have to stroke anyone's massively over-blown ego with mental telepathy, to avoid eternal torment.

Life is GOOD.

Good for you. Great.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Good for you. Great.

Indeed. You sound a wee bit ... jealous.

 

[firedragon]

Indeed. You sound a wee bit ... jealous.

Thanks.