Pro Life or Pro Choice?

[Mister Emu]

Irrelevant in terms of the effect.

Therefore? We were talking standards of protection.

Not helping a drowning man and going out and holding his head underwater have the same effect, we have a standard of protection against one of those things.

If the father was carrying the child, he would have the right to drop the child to save himself. He would even have the right to pry the child off him if he was clinging tightly. Bodily security still allows for deliberate acts that will knowingly result in the death of the child. It even allows for them if it's not certain that the father will die without dropping the child.

And if the child were standing at the top of the stairs frozen in fear he doesn't have the right to break his neck and kick him down the steps, even though that would save him, even if that is the only thing that would save him.

When abortion becomes relocation instead of destruction, you'll be on to something.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm glad you support these sorts of contraceptive measures, but the fact that it's so often the case that people who oppose legal abortion also oppose measures to reduce unwanted pregnancies (and thereby the number of abortions) is why I generally call people who oppose legal abortion "anti-choice" instead of "anti-abortion", since many of them take positions that would tend to actually increase the number of abortions.

I can understand those people, but I don't think their stance is helpful. To me, if you don't want kids, use condoms, the pill, have non-vaginal sex, get sterilized, be abstinent, etc. Do whatever you can do avoid an unwanted pregnancy because I don't believe in taking it out on the baby.

It's kinda weird because people just hump away and have unwanted kids but I'm sterilizing myself and it pains me that I won't be having biological kids. I view those people as throwing away and abusing a privilege I'd love to have.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

:yes:

Therefore? We were talking standards of protection.

Not helping a drowning man and going out and holding his head underwater have the same effect, we have a standard of protection against one of those things.

And if the child were standing at the top of the stairs frozen in fear he doesn't have the right to break his neck and kick him down the steps, even though that would save him, even if that is the only thing that would save him.

When abortion becomes relocation instead of destruction, you'll be on to something.

Like the ridiculous practice in Catholic hospitals of dealing with an ectopic pregnancy by removing the affected fallopian tube? Apparently, leaving a "child" to whither and die is A-OK as long as you don't kill it directly.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I have a little story to tell. Last week a co-worker's wife had an abortion. The first thing we said to him was asking about how his wife is doing. We did not even think of the possibilities why the abortion took place. Then came after that our condolences for the loss of the baby. We offered our condolences even without knowing any of the details why the abortion took place. Even after that I asked him how she's doing when I saw him another time.

I'm saying this story just to clarify to you in case any of you thinks I'm an enemy of women and that I'm biased to only one side of the equation, that I'm not.

If there was a real, live child in a burning building and the father decided not to risk life and limb to save him, would this be murder?

Off-topic, but could help:
I'm interested; putting the murder point aside, what would you do as a father?

 

[illykitty]

Well, have you considered a tubal ligation for yourself?

Yes I have, I read about all the different contraceptives, including more permanent ones for me and him.

But despite a little fear... He's not reluctant about having a vasectomy, he wants to do it so we don't have to worry. He says he never wanted children so he's fine with it. Just has some, imo, valid concerns.

He's just not doing it yet, waiting until he's 30 (end of next year) because otherwise doctors are a pain in the - yeah. They're reluctant to do it when you're below that age. He doesn't want to go through the trouble of them questioning your motives and so on.

I understand why they do it, but still...

Anyway, sorry for being chatty and all, but I think it's sort of relevant. Better than having an abortion because even if I'm pro-choice, I wouldn't want to have to do it. I really think it's an absolute last resort.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes I have, I read about all the different contraceptives, including more permanent ones for me and him.

But despite a little fear... He's not reluctant about having a vasectomy, he wants to do it so we don't have to worry. He says he never wanted children so he's fine with it. Just has some, imo, valid concerns.

He's just not doing it yet, waiting until he's 30 (end of next year) because otherwise doctors are a pain in the - yeah. They're reluctant to do it when you're below that age. He doesn't want to go through the trouble of them questioning your motives and so on.

I understand why they do it, but still...

Anyway, sorry for being chatty and all, but I think it's sort of relevant. Better than having an abortion because even if I'm pro-choice, I wouldn't want to have to do it. I really think it's an absolute last resort.

No need to apologize. This is a good discussion and I'm happy that you and your husband are so responsible. If he does get the vasectomy, make sure you still use birth control until he gets his sperm count checked and it comes back as 0. I only say that because some couples assume that the male will be sterile right after the procedure and they don't bother to have the sperm count checked so they end up pregnant.

As for me, I'm having (at the very least, when it comes to "downstairs") my internal reproductive organs removed. It's not for birth control, but still. I doubt I'd ever be in a situation where I could get pregnant, anyway. I'll just adopt or use a sperm donor because I do want to be a father some day.

 

[Bunyip]

I can understand those people, but I don't think their stance is helpful. To me, if you don't want kids, use condoms, the pill, have non-vaginal sex, get sterilized, be abstinent, etc. Do whatever you can do avoid an unwanted pregnancy because I don't believe in taking it out on the baby.

It's kinda weird because people just hump away and have unwanted kids but I'm sterilizing myself and it pains me that I won't be having biological kids. I view those people as throwing away and abusing a privilege I'd love to have.

Surely though the people ' humping away' and having unwanted kids are not the majority. Wouldn't there be better tools to manage that problem than prohibition?

 

[Thruve]

Surely though the people ' humping away' and having unwanted kids are not the majority.

It's surely not the minority.

Some of you are just.. ugh.

Ultimately, females who want abortions are free to do so. They know exactly what they are doing, and no matter how hard they try to justify their decisions, most are not justified. Overall, it will be something they will take to their grave.

I see an abortion no differently than a female banging her own stomach ten times with her fists. It has the same outcome. The image alone is horrifying. Why are people creating new images to make it anything less? Oh, because it's less horrifying and makes me feel better.. awe... No.

If you learn you have a condition to which giving birth, or the pregnancy alone, might kill you, then one can justify an abortion. If your a crack whore and getting pregnant doesn't induce a motherly instinct, which hopefully would give you the strength to let go of your problems and thrive in another way, and your health is not only a risk, but your childs as well, abortion is justified.

In reference to this:

I think, again, perspectives such as this reduce pregnancy down to a matter of convenience, like a stomach ache or a visit to a dentist. Being a major medical condition for a woman, pregnancy is a serious matter first and foremost to the woman.

Just - for one single example - "morning sickness".

Before I was pregnant the first time, I used to wonder what all the drama was about. I've vomited before. It's no big deal, right?

Then I got pregnant. I was camped out by a toilet for 4 months straight.

This isn't like a stomach virus. One that at most can last a week. This is 4 months of morning, noon, night, and during sleep when then next thing you know you're puking and dry-heaving at the smell of dairy, or cigar smoke, or the neighbor's dog, or your co-workers tuna fish sandwich...anything really.

4 months straight. FOUR. MONTHS. STRAIGHT. ALL THE TIME.

And that's just one of the more minor complications. Go to any website and discover all the "inconveniences" pregnancies offer to women. Not to mention the risks of diabetes, of elevated blood pressure and hypertension, of too much weight gain, or not enough weight gain, of blood disorders (that was my mother who endured 3 extremely difficult pregnancies that ripped her body apart).

I almost hemorrhaged when I gave birth the first time. There was a team of 20 or so specialists on hand because my birth was an extremely difficult one. I was under close surveillance at the time.

Inconvenience. Hah.

Pregnancy alters a woman's bone structure, blood sugar levels, blood pressure, and her hormones forever and ever. That is never anything to gloss over and deem unimportant or as an inconvenience. These are major medical concerns for a woman. It's her health at stake. And she should be able to decide what happens to her body....and the only people involved in that decision is her and doctor...not the public and a voting booth.

Ok ^ This last post is convincing, I get it. Morally, its more understandable than not but after complications of a 1st pregnancy, and/or the 2nd one, USE A CONDOM IF YOU DESIRE NOT TO GO THROUGH IT AGAIN. If you choose to have another child on the other hand, DON'T COMPLAIN and fight for "zomg a women's right to choose". If your satisfied that your suffering was worth while in years to come, you also don't have the right to complain. You should have had an abortion then, since your complaining, but you didn't. So why complain.

Whats the problem then? This ISN'T the majority of circumstances that lead one to have an abortion.

This is basic human rights were talking about. Those females on MTV are role models. Why? Because any under age female who gets pregnant knows exactly where to go or who to reach out to, especially with google at their finger tips, to get an abortion. Regardless of age, you open that hole.. you better expect something bigger to eventually pop out. Don't want something to pop out? Use ur noodle, either close the hole, run to the store, go to MD Now, Planned parenthood, etc, and get the shot. If you don't and you get pregnant, oh well! Life lesson for you! Oh, No, Wait! Abortion has become the new contraceptive option. Oh! The Irony!

Abortion America's number one Killer
http://www.lifenews.com/2013/04/25/abortion-is-the-number-one-killer-of-black-americans/

Thats alot of women who can't withstand morning sickness. Lawl?

But naw, lets give them their rights. Lets pity everyone for their issues =((
( you poor baby), and not promote strength and endurance for females with unjustifiable abortions.

 

[Bunyip]

It's surely not the minority.

Some of you are just.. ugh.

Ultimately, females who want abortions are free to do so. They know exactly what they are doing, and no matter how hard they try to justify their decisions, most are not justified. Overall, it will be something they will take to their grave.

Were are you getting these statistics from?

I see an abortion no differently than a female banging her own stomach ten times with her fists. It has the same outcome. The image alone is horrifying. Why are people creating new images to make it anything less? Oh, because it's less horrifying and makes me feel better.. awe... No.

If you learn you have a condition to which giving birth, or the pregnancy alone, might kill you, then one can justify an abortion. If your a crack whore and getting pregnant doesn't induce a motherly instinct, which hopefully would give you the strength to let go of your problems and thrive in another way, and your health is not only a risk, but your childs as well, abortion is justified.

In reference to this:
Ok ^ This last post is convincing, I get it. Morally, its more understandable than not but after complications of a 1st pregnancy, and/or the 2nd one, USE A CONDOM IF YOU DESIRE NOT TO GO THROUGH IT AGAIN. If you choose to have another child on the other hand, DON'T COMPLAIN and fight for "zomg a women's right to choose".

Whats the problem then? This ISN'T the majority of circumstances that lead one to have an abortion.

This is basic human rights were talking about. Those females on MTV are role models. Why? Because any under age female who gets pregnant knows exactly where to go or who to reach out to, especially with google at their finger tips, to get an abortion. Regardless of age, you open that hole.. you better expect something bigger to eventually pop out. Don't want something to pop out? Use ur noodle, either close the hole, run to the store, go to MD Now, Planned parenthood, etc, and get the shot. If you don't and you get pregnant, oh well! Life lesson for you! Oh, No, Wait! Abortion has become the new contraceptive option. Oh! The Irony!

Abortion America's number one Killer
Abortion is the Number One Killer of Black Americans | LifeNews.com

Thats alot of women who can't withstand morning sickness. Lawl?

But naw, lets give them their rights. Lets pity everyone for their issues =((
( you poor baby), and not promote strength and endurance for females with unjustifiable abortions.

 

[bluegoo300]

I'm glad you support these sorts of contraceptive measures, but the fact that it's so often the case that people who oppose legal abortion also oppose measures to reduce unwanted pregnancies (and thereby the number of abortions) is why I generally call people who oppose legal abortion "anti-choice" instead of "anti-abortion", since many of them take positions that would tend to actually increase the number of abortions.

i think your generalizing on that sir I’m anti-abortion yet i believe that if there is a preventable way to avoid pregnancy in the first place all the better.in my personal option if people to more care when they did things this would not be as big of issue and i would not have had to help a friend of mine at the age of 16 put the kid up for adoption.

 

[McBell]

They know exactly what they are doing, and no matter how hard they try to justify their decisions, most are not justified.

Now all you need to do is show that your opinion on the justifications should be taken seriously because....?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

i think your generalizing on that sir I’m anti-abortion yet i believe that if there is a preventable way to avoid pregnancy in the first place all the better.in my personal option if people to more care when they did things this would not be as big of issue and i would not have had to help a friend of mine at the age of 16 put the kid up for adoption.

I'm not generalizing. The terms aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible to be both anti-abortion and anti-choice. It's just that not everyone who is anti-choice is anti-abortion, so I don't use the "anti-abortion" label for the whole group or movement.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Perhaps the poll should have been "pro abortion" and "anti abortion" instead?

I got confused day and night when I first read this thread. Maybe because I'm not familiar with this abortion problem found in cultures other than mine.

 

[bluegoo300]

Perhaps the poll should have been "pro abortion" and "anti abortion" instead?

I got confused day and night when I first read this thread. Maybe because I'm not familiar with this abortion problem found in cultures other than mine.

for my own knowledge what is Saudi Arabia policy on abortion if I’m not mistaken are they against it?

 

[Smart_Guy]

for my own knowledge what is Saudi Arabia policy on abortion if I’m not mistaken are they against it?

Yes we are, but only as a general rule. If the mother is the least threatened, it is her choice to decide.

I mean, I personally see that is common sense. A personal opinion only.

Just last weak a co-worker had his wife undergo an abortion and the first thing we did was asking how his wife is doing with not even knowing why the abortion took place. According to my community, I'd say she couldn't take it so the choice was made.

Special cases happen for sure. No one is perfect.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Perhaps the poll should have been "pro abortion" and "anti abortion" instead?

I got confused day and night when I first read this thread. Maybe because I'm not familiar with this abortion problem found in cultures other than mine.

The problem isn't abortion; it's lack of access to abortion. And it most certainly affects your culture.

 

[bluegoo300]

Yes we are, but only as a general rule. If the mother is the least threatened, it is her choice to decide.

I mean, I personally see that is common sense. A personal opinion only.

Just last weak a co-worker had his wife undergo an abortion and the first thing we did was asking how his wife is doing with not even knowing why the abortion took place. According to my community, I'd say she couldn't take it so the choice was made.

Special cases happen for sure. No one is perfect.

yes i a very much agree with that

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes we are, but only as a general rule. If the mother is the least threatened, it is her choice to decide.

I mean, I personally see that is common sense. A personal opinion only.

Just last weak a co-worker had his wife undergo an abortion and the first thing we did was asking how his wife is doing with not even knowing why the abortion took place. According to my community, I'd say she couldn't take it so the choice was made.

Special cases happen for sure. No one is perfect.

"A co-worker had his wife undergo an abortion"? So the choice was his, not his wife's?

 

[bluegoo300]

"A co-worker had his wife undergo an abortion"? So the choice was his, not his wife's?

oh my god you cant control the world sir so stop trying. god you sound like the U.S. millitary trying to stread you message to people that dont what it.

 

[Smart_Guy]

"A co-worker had his wife undergo an abortion"? So the choice was his, not his wife's?

That was not what I meant.

I'll try again...

A wife of a co-worker underwent an abortion.

That was what I meant. I hope it is good

If the mother is the least threatened, it is her choice to decide.