Propaganda: Why it is necessary for Islam

[Fatihah]

How do you know that they are not?

Response: Let's say that I present to you a basketball and say that the ball can not bounce. You see the basketball and say that it can bounce. So I begin to provide evidence from historians and scholars to prove my stance and likewise you do the same.

So what is the end result? Naturally I will say that your facts are wrong and you can easily say the same to me. So how do we resolve this? Well, what better way to know if the basketball will bounce than to bounce it yourself?!! What better logic of
proof can be better than that?!!

In other words, test the logic. And this simple concept of testing logic is mentioned in the qur'an. In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an we read, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".

Here we have two tests to prove the authenticity and truth of the qur'an. Once applied, you will come to learn that the qur'an is in fact from Allah and has never nor will it ever be corrupted. That established, we turn to ch.24:55 which says "Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will, surely, make them Successors in the earth, as He made successors (of) those who were before them; and that He will, surely, establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them..." And in ch.17:81 we read "And proclaim 'Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Verily, falsehood is bound to vanish".

So the qur'an establishes the fact that the false religions will fail in comparison to the truth. So the fact that the collection of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim is established as authentic by the muslim world over other hadiths and biographies shows that these other collections are indeed false.

 

[Fatihah]

Perhaps i took that the wrong way , but yes i think you did ,you said i am the same as all the OTHER prophets, so you are the same as Isa ? do you attend synagogue then?

Response: No I don't and neither did Isa.

 

[Fatihah]

Propaganda Critic: Examples > Anti-American propaganda from Afghanistan

Response: Exactly how is this propaganda?

 

[Fatihah]

Of course there is propaganda against Islam like the DVD Obsession which most people would not watch,propaganda against Islam is just not needed.

Response: I appreciate the honesty. But I don't know of any propaganda against the West by muslims. A whole lot of hatred, yes. But I haven't seen or heard of any propaganda.

 

[McBell]

Response: Let's say that I present to you a basketball and say that the ball can not bounce. You see the basketball and say that it can bounce. So I begin to provide evidence from historians and scholars to prove my stance and likewise you do the same.

So what is the end result? Naturally I will say that your facts are wrong and you can easily say the same to me. So how do we resolve this? Well, what better way to know if the basketball will bounce than to bounce it yourself?!! What better logic of
proof can be better than that?!!

In other words, test the logic. And this simple concept of testing logic is mentioned in the qur'an. In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an we read, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".

Here we have two tests to prove the authenticity and truth of the qur'an. Once applied, you will come to learn that the qur'an is in fact from Allah and has never nor will it ever be corrupted. That established, we turn to ch.24:55 which says "Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will, surely, make them Successors in the earth, as He made successors (of) those who were before them; and that He will, surely, establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them..." And in ch.17:81 we read "And proclaim 'Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Verily, falsehood is bound to vanish".

So the qur'an establishes the fact that the false religions will fail in comparison to the truth. So the fact that the collection of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim is established as authentic by the muslim world over other hadiths and biographies shows that these other collections are indeed false.

Thank you for your answer.

 

[Alla Prima]

Response: None of these hadiths or biographies are authentic. If you claim that they are, how do you know?

Any Hadith or biography that paints Mohammad in a bad light is not authentic to brain-washed Muslims for brain-washed Muslims cannot criticize Islam.

Here's what Islam does to critics of Islam:

The old man Abu Afak was murdered for his criticisms of Mohammed. The poetess Asma bint Marwan was murdered at the command of Mohammed while breast-feeding her baby for speaking out against Afek's murder. Salman Rushdie, along with the editors and publishers of his book The Satanic Verses, are condemned to death because he criticized Islam. The of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh was slaughtered on the streets of Amsterdam for his criticism of Islam. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has body guards to protect her from death because she criticized Islam. This is the result of criticism of Islam.

 

[Alla Prima]

Response: I appreciate the honesty. But I don't know of any propaganda against the West by muslims. A whole lot of hatred, yes. But I haven't seen or heard of any propaganda.

We could start with the "Religion of peace". Propaganda.

 

[Alla Prima]

Response: Let's say that I present to you a basketball and say that the ball can not bounce. You see the basketball and say that it can bounce. So I begin to provide evidence from historians and scholars to prove my stance and likewise you do the same.

So what is the end result? Naturally I will say that your facts are wrong and you can easily say the same to me. So how do we resolve this? Well, what better way to know if the basketball will bounce than to bounce it yourself?!! What better logic of
proof can be better than that?!!

In other words, test the logic. And this simple concept of testing logic is mentioned in the qur'an. In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an we read, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".

Here we have two tests to prove the authenticity and truth of the qur'an. Once applied, you will come to learn that the qur'an is in fact from Allah and has never nor will it ever be corrupted. That established, we turn to ch.24:55 which says "Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will, surely, make them Successors in the earth, as He made successors (of) those who were before them; and that He will, surely, establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them..." And in ch.17:81 we read "And proclaim 'Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Verily, falsehood is bound to vanish".

So the qur'an establishes the fact that the false religions will fail in comparison to the truth. So the fact that the collection of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim is established as authentic by the muslim world over other hadiths and biographies shows that these other collections are indeed false.

Propaganda.

 

[Alla Prima]

well he is a muslim and you aren't. if the hadith contradicts the quran, then it is false.

Nothing that I have posted contradicts the Koran.

 

[Kodanshi]

well yeah, most hadiths or maybe some have been tampered with, so it doesn't matter if it is sahih, there also might not be anything in the quran that relates to a hadith, so all the same hadith are gathered untill it is proved which is right and wrong, but still trying to find a connection to the quran. if one hadith contradicts the other, then the scholars try to get something from the quran to see wich of those 2 are correct.

There have been literally CENTURIES of scholars verifying ahadith. Do a decent search online and you can find reams of ahadith that are fabricated or da‘eef, which scholars have proven. Who are you who knows more than centuries worth of scholars who identify ahadith as ‘sahih’?

 

[YmirGF]

Let us discuss your analogy of groceries and religion. You still seem to be under the illusion that it is a meaningful argument, but as you shall see, it is not.

Your original comment was this:

Response: What's wrong with this verse. When you go to the supermarket, do you not purchase the best of products? Do you go for the old and expired meats? Assuming you don't, why is it o.k. for you to recommend the best but not o.k. for others?

That comment was in response to the following:

Only Islam Acceptable

003.085

The full text of which is in several translations:

- If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). - Yusuf Ali
- And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. - Pickthal
- Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers. - Arberry
- And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. - Shakir
- No religion other than Islam (submission to the will of God) will be accepted from anyone. Whoever follows a religion other than Islam will be lost on the Day of Judgment. – Sarwar

You analogy is weak, at most, Fatihah. Since no one else is willing to tackle it, I’ll give it a shot.

Your so-called “argument” is rejected because:

When showing others the best products available, any person can easily cite reasons to support the suggestion. The idea is that any person, barring personal preferences, can readily test the accuracy of your “best” suggestions.

Given that these are simple products, with basic ingredients, it does not require a huge investment of time and resources to find areas of agreement (and possibly disagreement) with a given “best choices” list. The point is that it is a verifiable process.

The suggestion that one religion is better than another religion is not easy to prove or disprove. One is welcome to state their preference, but I’d wager that most thinking people realize that there is too many subjective issues involved to reach a meaningful conclusion. Likewise, one could not arrive at an answer in a reasonable time frame, unlike with checking the validity of a “best choices” list from a supermarket. Again, someone is welcome to say, “Religion X is the best!” but since virtually all religions make this claim in some form or other it is a somewhat hollow pronouncement and one that I don’t think any reasonable person takes very seriously.

But, let’s look at the text itself, shall we?

The first difficulty I have with the passage is the nonsensical idea of winners and losers. Such thinking can only appeal to those of the basest mentality. It is little more than an elaboration of the “carrot and the stick”. Here, the carrot is the promise of paradise and the suggestion of being among the “winner’s circle”; whereas, in this instance, the “stick” is the reward of the losers. Curiously, as if losing is not punishment enough, said losers are “rewarded” with especially sadistic punishments designed to scare people into trying to be among the winners. It is rogue psychology at its worst, in my opinion.

In my view the verse is not simply extolling the virtues of Islam, but rather it is focusing on the negative consequences of rejecting Islam, and purportedly from God Almighty, not from some Joe Blow in a supermarket. Negative reinforcement can be an effective, but it is arguably a shameful way to sell said product. Not only do we have the negative day to day very real consequences of rejecting Islam, in a Muslim society, but we also have the threat of persecution after physical death. This is in no way similar to saying what products are best to buy at the supermarket because if the same sense were used in both cases you wouldn’t be saying, “I think this is best”, you would be saying, “Only these items are good for you and all other items will cause sickness or death.” This is several hops, skips and jumps beyond caveat emptor due to the implied threat.

So, Fatihah, this is why I reject the analogy as I found it an unrealistic comparison. Further to this, you do understand that just because an argument cannot be defeated does not mean that the argument is valid or true.

To illustrate this: “The flying spaghetti monster loves pixies but hates pink fairies.

Although it is a ludicrous example, it is not one that can be defeated as we have no way to test any of the elements of the statement. To defeat an argument requires proof that one or all the elements in the assertion is in error. If you cannot do that, the argument stands, however, it does not mean that the argument is right, correct or even truthful. I am sure you understand.

For example, attributing text to Allah is essentially meaningless, as there is no possible way to validate the information. We cannot send a team of scientists to investigate. We cannot call Allah up on our mobile phones and say, “Hey, Dude, is this really correct. Like, are you kidding me?” It cannot even be logically tested without the dispensation of disbelief.

In this way, any and all comments attributed to any form of deity are suspect, due to the problematic nature of deity to begin with. This is one reason why Muslims go to great length to secure the notion that Muhammad was always truthful. To further this is a notion purported by some Muslims I have interacted with that suggest that Muslims also never lie. (I have been told this directly by Muslims on more than one occasion.)

So, we have a highly improbable idea that Muslims always tell the truth, sitting atop the highly improbable idea that Muhammad always told the truth. For all we actually know this could be a fabrication and that all dissenting views have since been eradicated over the course of 1400 years.

To me, that is far more believable, given the nature of the human animal than it is to believe the stories as given.

 

[ayani]

my response was, essentially, that many converts to Islam quite frankly don't know a lot about the details of Mohammad's biography, at least not the parts which many people tend to identify as odd, cruel, or disturbing.

in Islam, Mohammad is identified as a blessed, kind, pious, devout, reasonable, just, and humble man. who abhorred violence yet fought only to protect the ummah, and who married all of his wives out of love and a genuine desire to protect and care for them.

he is described as an ideal leader, a prophet of God, beloved by Allah, and a man whose word and deed are to be respected, imitated, and honored.

those aspects of his biography coming from the hadith narratives which describe acts many would identify as cruel, nonsensical, or out of sync with the message and standards of the Quran can be ignored, labeled as inauthentic, or defended based on reasons such as historical and culural contexts, etc.

what i'm saying is that many converts to Islam don't come to Islam after browing the hadith, and in all likelyhood they know as much about Mohammad's life as books, films, Muslims, or imams wishing to pay him respect and honor can or will tell them.

Your reply is not relevant to my question at all, as i was not relating the conversions to the accurateness of a religion.

That question is directed to Alla Prima. She labeled the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) with many despicable descriptions. So i was asking why would civilized people living in a free society in this century are attracted to the teaching of this man if indeed he was evil? Simple and pure.

 

[Gharib]

Nothing that I have posted contradicts the Koran.

can you show me what you've posted, one at a time? i'm not a scolar to judge, but i'm just interested.

 

[Gharib]

There have been literally CENTURIES of scholars verifying ahadith. Do a decent search online and you can find reams of ahadith that are fabricated or da‘eef, which scholars have proven. Who are you who knows more than centuries worth of scholars who identify ahadith as ‘sahih’?

oh really? :areyoucra

so if a sahih hadith says "Muhammed (saws) killed for fun" then well we all know the answer.

 

[McBell]

oh really? :areyoucra

so if a sahih hadith says "Muhammed (saws) killed for fun" then well we all know the answer.

Well, we all know YOUR answer, but with your track record thus far....

 

[England my lionheart]

oh really? :areyoucra

so if a sahih hadith says "Muhammed (saws) killed for fun" then well we all know the answer.

I have quoted many Hadiths on this Forum and have been told that Bukhari/Muslim Hadith are Sahih/reliable so if Muhammed had people killed that is written in a reliable Hadith what are we to believe,it's your religion you tell me.

 

[Gharib]

Well, we all know YOUR answer, but with your track record thus far....

i don't get this post, what are you saying, can you explain it to me?

 

[Gharib]

I have quoted many Hadiths on this Forum and have been told that Bukhari/Muslim Hadith are Sahih/reliable so if Muhammed had people killed that is written in a reliable Hadith what are we to believe,it's your religion you tell me.

had them killed about............ if it contradicts the quran then it is false, simple really.

 

[Gharib]

to Mestemia.

i almost forgot, that previous post that i made, it wasn't about turning it into a personal thing, i just said that to show you that we know more about the quran, so if someone posts a hadith and we know what the quran says about it, then we say immediately that it is false, but if we know the verse in the quran that the hadith contradicts.

 

[England my lionheart]

had them killed about............ if it contradicts the quran then it is false, simple really.

So there are many Sahih/reliable Hadith that are false/unreliable which is a contradiction isn't it,i mean forgive me but this does'nt make sense,i have been told in another thread "the shame and horror of the Hadith and Sunna" that the Hadith and Sunna are a neccessity to compliment the Quran and after 1400 years Muslim scholars agree which are reliable but some of them are false:help::areyoucrabecause they contradict the Quran,is this Cherry picking in the extreme.