Propaganda: Why it is necessary for Islam

[Fatihah]

Lets say i wanted to bye a fast car,the advertising for the Bugatti Veyron says it can do 0 to 62 MPH in 2.64 seconds which is fast,so off i go to test drive one and indeed it confirms the advertising.
Now lets take Islam,the advertising says "the one true religion" so off i go to the local Mosque and like the Bugatti doing 0 to 60 in 2.64 seconds as proof i am looking for this proof from Islam that it is indeed "the one true religion" please show me this proof.
If you can prove it i'll convert, hows that,i'm that confident.

Response: That proof has already been presented in post # 183.

 

[Rakhel]

Ok another question(i think this falls here)....If the first gulf war had not ended the way it did, with The US and other countries pulling back when they did, would there have been more or less respect for the western world?

 

[Fatihah]

I thought I covered this fairly well already, Fatihah. It is evidence of nothing and I am a bit surprised that you would think God to be so craven as to author what is essentially a meaningless statement.

Aside from this minor detail...

In your own terms, the founders of the Baha’i Faith "accepted" this so-called challenge and look where it got them. You could, I suppose, say that the relentless persecution they have had to endure IS evidence that their religion is not "of god" but it would be a hollow claim especially coming from a member of the Ummah.

One reason that the Baha’i Faith is not more popular than it is currently is because Muslims have vigorously persecuted both its founders and its followers since its inception. Their persecution happens to this day at the hands of Muslims. Oddly, I wouldn't anticipate people who followed a "religion of peace" to behave so miserably to those of another faith.

One can only imagine how such a wonderful and gentle faith would have emerged onto the world stage had it not spent its infancy trying to stay alive in an extremely hostile environment. My guess is that had Joseph Smith been born in what was then Persia, that he too, would have been killed or rotted away in a Persian jail, having incurred the wrath of ever-wise Islamic legal system.

If indeed Islam IS the only "true" religion, then it follows that anyone who accepted the challenge, as given, would indeed be openly insulting that supposedly "true" religion. It is safe to conclude that one COULD NOT take the challenge and announce it publicly in a Muslim society without drawing scorn and quite possibly, threats of death, due to this grave insult to both Islam, Allah and his alleged messenger. One may as well paint a bull's eye on one's forehead.

Response: It is an amazing thing about this challenge. To watch the excuses from one willing to accept the challenge is simply fascinating.

You claim that the qur'an is man made. I say that not only is it not man made but it ia absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for any human to make the qur'an. Yet when asked to produce a chapter like the qur'an to see if in fact it is possible or not, you do everything but accept the challenge. I'm not asking for an arm or leg or your life savings. It is a simple request. You claim you want proof yet you won't take the challenge. Amazing.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: It is an amazing thing about this challenge. To watch the excuses from one willing to accept the challenge is simply fascinating.

You claim that the qur'an is man made. I say that not only is it not man made but it ia absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for any human to make the qur'an. Yet when asked to produce a chapter like the qur'an to see if in fact it is possible or not, you do everything but accept the challenge. I'm not asking for an arm or leg or your life savings. It is a simple request. You claim you want proof yet you won't take the challenge. Amazing.

But Fatihah, you are ignoring the fact that the challenge is without merit. Do none of the reasons I have given you for not accepting the so-called challenge have the slightest merit? Look at how the Baha'i's are treated. Why would anyone in their right mind accept such a "challenge" in light of the way Muslims have treated Baha'i followers for over 150 years? Is this supposed to be a reasonable discussion?

 

[gnostic]

well lets see, before attacking iraq, the US said many times that iraq has nuclear weapons, then when they invaded they changed their policy to saddam hussein because there were no weapons (you do know that a country such as the US does not accuse another country with lies right?).

I don't think you understand DavyCrocket2003's question.

What does the invasion of Iraq have to do with Islam?

What does nuclear weapons or WMDs have to with Islam?

I despise Bush as much as you do, but it was more political and personal than religion for the invasion.

I think he had personal grudge against Saddam, because his father didn't end the war by removing Saddam in the 1st Gulf War. And I have never believed that Saddam had WMDs. Yes, Saddam gassed the Kurds, but in the aftermath of the 1st war, the UN inspections may have thoroughly crippled Saddam's capabilities, and there were no evidence that he had WMD capabilities.

I have always maintained that the war in Iraq was a mistake, strategically, tactically and politically, mainly because Bin Laden was never captured and killed, and there was still ever-present of the Talibans returning. What Bush should have done was go after them all in Pakistan. He should not have wasted time in Iraq.

The other reason is that I've always thought Bush was self-righteous moron, even before he became president. Though I have to admit that the war in Iraq was not motivated because of religion.

You should understand I am not siding Bush in any way. YmirGF could testify I hate Bush's gut in another 2 forums, and he know my feeling about the war in Iraq.

 

[Azakel]

Yet the US army bombards villages in Afghanistan simply because the people are extremists, because their idealogy is similar to Taliban. Please don't tell me being an extremist is equal to being a murderer, many extremists just choose to live a very strict life and may also look down upon anyone who does not share their lifestyle but they dont necessarily kill anyone.

And there wrong too. So let me guess just because I'm an American I supposed to agree with everything my Gov, does, and my Military can do no wrong....wrong. Nice, thank you for putting words in my mouth I love when people do that:areyoucra

 

[Fatihah]

It is really rather interesting that you take the stance that what you believe has to be proven wrong by others and not proven right by you.

Makes you sound much like Kent Hovind...

Response: On the contrary, I am proving my belief to be right by proving the other belief wrong.

 

[Gharib]

I don't think you understand DavyCrocket2003's question.

no i understood his question.

What does the invasion of Iraq have to do with Islam?

well it destroyed the people into thinking that islam is a bad religion, when all you hear is gun fire, then when some idiot says to you this is how we can stop it, what would you do?

What does nuclear weapons or WMDs have to with Islam?

they were a distraction, in order to get to iraq, then to make people fear that which they have believed all their life. psychology is a big factor in iraq and it is the american way to play with peoples minds.

I despise Bush as much as you do, but it was more political and personal than religion for the invasion.

do you really? well a when something black gets sprayed with a thin layer of white colour it does look white doesn't it.

I think he had personal grudge against Saddam, because his father didn't end the war by removing Saddam in the 1st Gulf War. And I have never believed that Saddam had WMDs. Yes, Saddam gassed the Kurds, but in the aftermath of the 1st war, the UN inspections may have thoroughly crippled Saddam's capabilities, and there were no evidence that he had WMD capabilities.

so proving the US wrong, a nation such as the US does not accuse some arab nation with false claims, and yet it did, so it wasn't political, it was a bit personal but not political

I have always maintained that the war in Iraq was a mistake, strategically, tactically and politically, mainly because Bin Laden was never captured and killed, and there was still ever-present of the Talibans returning. What Bush should have done was go after them all in Pakistan. He should not have wasted time in Iraq.

well that just proves my points then, first it went after nuclear weapons, then saddam then osama, and exactly like i said into afghanistan then pakistan. all for religios reasons, to destroy the sorrounding countries of Iran, then to attack it.

so if you who are a man and has nothing to do with the government are saying that the US should not have gone to iraq, then don't you think that the government people knew this?

The other reason is that I've always thought Bush was self-righteous moron, even before he became president. Though I have to admit that the war in Iraq was not motivated because of religion.

no thats totally wrong.

You should understand I am not siding Bush in any way. YmirGF could testify I hate Bush's gut in another 2 forums, and he know my feeling about the war in Iraq.

i understand that, i can see it. but it was a religious war, it will try to attack iran but first it wan't to ruin the people of the sorrounding countries, why do you think it want Turkey to become a EU member, because it cares about the turks, or because it wan't a bridge from europe into asia through turkey.

 

[Fatihah]

But Fatihah, you are ignoring the fact that the challenge is without merit. Do none of the reasons I have given you for not accepting the so-called challenge have the slightest merit? Look at how the Baha'i's are treated. Why would anyone in their right mind accept such a "challenge" in light of the way Muslims have treated Baha'i followers for over 150 years? Is this supposed to be a reasonable discussion?

Response: What does any of this have to do with why you, YmirGF, won't accept the challenge?

 

[Fatihah]

Ok another question(i think this falls here)....If the first gulf war had not ended the way it did, with The US and other countries pulling back when they did, would there have been more or less respect for the western world?

Response: I don't believe so. The Western countries were all started off of brutal and injust acts of violence. In the case of islam, for example, the western powers oppressed the muslims after they conquered the Ottoman Empire. Then they involved themselves in probably the most ruthless of slave treatment and trafficing in history when they invaded Africa and when they got to the Americas they enslaved and killed the natives there. It was these actions that paved the way for western civilization today which is why there is so much hatred towards the West. When the smoke finally cleared, they were and are on top while the other countries suffer, a suffering that is a direct result of their actions.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: What does any of this have to do with why you, YmirGF, won't accept the challenge?

Fatihah, it has everything to do with anyone who thinks to accept the supposed challenge. One need only look at the Baha'i to see how seriously Muslims take their vaunted challenge and how dim a view they have of any that actually succeed. Muslims have been unable to defeat the Baha's faith in over a hundred and fifty years. By your own scoring methods the challenge has been met and Islam is found wanting... with blood on its hands.

 

[Gharib]

Fatihah, it has everything to do with anyone who thinks to accept the supposed challenge. One need only look at the Baha'i to see how seriously Muslims take their vaunted challenge and how dim a view they have of any that actually succeed. Muslims have been unable to defeat the Baha's faith in over a hundred and fifty years. By your own scoring methods the challenge has been met and Islam is found wanting... with blood on its hands.

is there a challenge on disproving the baha'i faith? can i have a go. whats the question?

 

[Gharib]

Lets say i wanted to bye a fast car,the advertising for the Bugatti Veyron says it can do 0 to 62 MPH in 2.64 seconds which is fast,so off i go to test drive one and indeed it confirms the advertising.
Now lets take Islam,the advertising says "the one true religion" so off i go to the local Mosque and like the Bugatti doing 0 to 60 in 2.64 seconds as proof i am looking for this proof from Islam that it is indeed "the one true religion" please show me this proof.
If you can prove it i'll convert, hows that,i'm that confident.

do you mind if i tried? would that be OK.

 

[gnostic]

well that just proves my points then, first it went after nuclear weapons, then saddam then osama, and exactly like i said into afghanistan then pakistan. all for religios reasons, to destroy the sorrounding countries of Iran, then to attack it.

No, you still don't get it. It's political and militarily, not religious.

The war in Afghanistan did not end, because Bin Laden and the Talibans just moved to western Pakistan. The best plan would have been to pursue them into Pakistan, not fight another completely new war in Iraq. That's when stupid Bush administration blundered. It gave the Talibans and the Al-Qaeda to regroup.

I dislike war of all types, it doesn't mean I don't understand the strategy, and the Bush's strategy was doomed to fail, because he didn't eliminate the threats and achieve his original goals, which was to capture or kill Bin Laden, and crippled the Al-Qaeda and Talibans.

But I have to repeat myself. The war and motivation for war was political and militarily ones, not religious ones.

 

[Gharib]

No, you still don't get it. It's political and militarily, not religious.

The war in Afghanistan did not end, because Bin Laden and the Talibans just moved to western Pakistan. The best plan would have been to pursue them into Pakistan, not fight another completely new war in Iraq. That's when stupid Bush administration blundered. It gave the Talibans and the Al-Qaeda to regroup.

I dislike war of all types, it doesn't mean I don't understand the strategy, and the Bush's strategy was doomed to fail, because he didn't eliminate the threats and achieve his original goals, which was to capture or kill Bin Laden, and crippled the Al-Qaeda and Talibans.

But I have to repeat myself. The war and motivation for war was political and militarily ones, not religious ones.

honestly Gnostic, i would have taken you serious if you had mentioned money or oil there, but you never did. i'm not saying that you do not understand the whole thing, but i'm saying your view isn't the correct one. thats what the US is trying to tell people, we went for political reasons, if so then why did the US have to go and fight alqaeda and the taliban. don't you think that arabs could have done it themself? there are a lot of gang wars in the US, you don't see any other country stuffing their nose there do you?

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: That proof has already been presented in post # 183.

In other words, test the logic. And this simple concept of testing logic is mentioned in the qur'an. In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an we read, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".

This isn't proof,back to the Bugatti Veyron,the manual for the car says 0 to 62 MPH in 2.64 seconds,i ask for a test drive,i am told the proof is in the manual,you see this just is not proof,at best it's supposition and i would say with absolute confidence that you could never prove it to be true.

 

[England my lionheart]

do you mind if i tried? would that be OK.

Yes please,it will be interesting

 

[kai]

Response: I don't believe so. The Western countries were all started off of brutal and injust acts of violence. In the case of islam, for example, the western powers oppressed the muslims after they conquered the Ottoman Empire. Then they involved themselves in probably the most ruthless of slave treatment and trafficing in history when they invaded Africa and when they got to the Americas they enslaved and killed the natives there. It was these actions that paved the way for western civilization today which is why there is so much hatred towards the West. When the smoke finally cleared, they were and are on top while the other countries suffer, a suffering that is a direct result of their actions.

you seem to have your timelines a little confused.

 

[kai]

honestly Gnostic, i would have taken you serious if you had mentioned money or oil there, but you never did. i'm not saying that you do not understand the whole thing, but i'm saying your view isn't the correct one. thats what the US is trying to tell people, we went for political reasons, if so then why did the US have to go and fight alqaeda and the taliban. don't you think that arabs could have done it themself? there are a lot of gang wars in the US, you don't see any other country stuffing their nose there do you?

esalam you do know of an incident when Alqueda basically declared war on the US and was sheltered and nurtured by the Taliban. Alqueda stuffed its nose right into the US. and what do the Arabs ever do about anything? except sell oil perhaps.


and the police deal with gang related incidents

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: I don't believe so. The Western countries were all started off of brutal and injust acts of violence. In the case of islam, for example, the western powers oppressed the muslims after they conquered the Ottoman Empire. Then they involved themselves in probably the most ruthless of slave treatment and trafficing in history when they invaded Africa and when they got to the Americas they enslaved and killed the natives there. It was these actions that paved the way for western civilization today which is why there is so much hatred towards the West. When the smoke finally cleared, they were and are on top while the other countries suffer, a suffering that is a direct result of their actions.

I think you will find that Muslims played a huge part in the slave trade and still do and if the West is so hated why is it the number one destination for Immigrants from the Middle East.