Proving the existence of Allah (swt) to an atheist

[Bismillah]

Please provide some proof where Muslims are encouraged to "breed like rabbits".

My previous statement is just one example off the top of my head, I have not read up on the subject, but will do so later (schoolwork will really prohibit me until after my standardized tests are done, but I'll try and get back to you on homosexuality in Islam and its history in Islamic societies. Also I am lazy, it is late, and I'm trying to finish my movie)

 

[Kerr]

Is ADHD a genetic trait? Can't it then be passed of to offspring or show up in later generations? If so, isn't that a "contagious".

No, that is called inheritance. "Contagious" means it can be transferred between individuals, but someone with ADHD could touch people or give as much of my blood as they wished, could even donate organs, and it would not be transferred. Thereby it is not contagious.

Homosexuality is a bit the same. It has a genetic factor, but it could never be transferred between individuals, and therefore it is not contagious.

 

[Bismillah]

No, that is called inheritance. "Contagious" means it can be transferred between individuals, but someone with ADHD could touch people or give as much of my blood as they wished, could even donate organs, and it would not be transferred. Thereby it is not contagious.

Homosexuality is a bit the same. It has a genetic factor, but it could never be transferred between individuals, and therefore it is not contagious.

We are now arguing over semantics, which really doesn't have an affect on the conversation. Whether it is either contagious or hereditary, my poor word choice doesn't really affect the end result. Alice is arguing that Homosexuality is genetic Eseslam isn't, which is what I stated .

It has a genetic factor,

Do you have proof?

 

[Kerr]

We are now arguing over semantics, which really doesn't have an affect on the conversation. Whether it is either contagious or hereditary, my poor word choice doesn't really affect the end result. Alice is arguing that Homosexuality is genetic Eseslam isn't, which is what I stated .

Maybe, still think it is important to use the right words . But it is not good to get stuck in a debate over the definitions of those words (such as the debate of the meaning of the word "homosexual" before), so lets leave it here.

Do you have proof?

Every non-religious source of information seem to say it does. My school did to, it mentioned genetics has a part to play. And considering homosexuals are not even aware of the so called choice, all un-baised information I have seen seem to point at there is a genetic factor in it. Have any proof on the contrary?

 

[Bismillah]

Every non-religious source of information seem to say it does. My school did to, it mentioned genetics has a part to play. And considering homosexuals are not even aware of the so called choice, all un-baised information I have seen seem to point at there is a genetic factor in it.

So you assume, correctly to in most cases, that religious studies would be biased. Might not non-religious studies have that same bias? Wouldn't some also be trying to prove a point; religion is wrong?

Have any proof on the contrary?

Not off the top of my head, though I have take a Psychology course. From it, I can imagine a scenario where the sexualities of a person if repressed and a heterosexual man can in turn become homosexual to release his sexual desires. This is reported in countries like Saudi Arabia where many men face restrictions in their sexual lives.

Instances where the psyche of the person is adversely affected when it comes to women or idealized when it comes to men, also seem possible. Thus those who are not born gay, essentially turn gay without choice.

There is a subject that I just found off of google Do studies conducted on homosexuality in twins show a genetic basis of sexual orientation? - Born Gay - ProCon.org

 

[Kerr]

So you assume, correctly to in most cases, that religious studies would be biased. Might not non-religious studies have that same bias? Wouldn't some also be trying to prove a point; religion is wrong?

Religion seem very baised at the subject. Like how they seem to assume it is immoral and wrong, or a "disease"... you cannot make such assumptions if you are going to make a unbaised study and all.

 

[Bismillah]

Religion seem very baised at the subject. Like how they seem to assume it is immoral and wrong, or a "disease"... you cannot make such assumptions if you are going to make a unbaised study and all.

And many scientists hold a similar bias against religion. How they assume religion is wrong, or a "disease". This bias can work both ways.

 

[Kerr]

And many scientists hold a similar bias against religion. How they assume religion is wrong, or a "disease". This bias can work both ways.

The issue is that assuming that homosexuality is wrong, is a disease or is harming people, undermines the credability of the studies in question. Personally I could not care what religion you are of, or if you are non-religous, if you do a study like that I do not trust it.

 

[Kerr]

Not off the top of my head, though I have take a Psychology course. From it, I can imagine a scenario where the sexualities of a person if repressed and a heterosexual man can in turn become homosexual to release his sexual desires. This is reported in countries like Saudi Arabia where many men face restrictions in their sexual lives.

This does not prove that it is not genetic.

Instances where the psyche of the person is adversely affected when it comes to women or idealized when it comes to men, also seem possible. Thus those who are not born gay, essentially turn gay without choice.

Cases where people simply become homosexuals, try to deny it but no matter how they try they still find themselves drawn to the same sex, are quite common.

There is a subject that I just found off of google Do studies conducted on homosexuality in twins show a genetic basis of sexual orientation? - Born Gay - ProCon.org

Note this part:

We found 52 percent of identical twin brothers of gay men also were gay, compared with 22 percent of fraternal twins, compared with 11 percent of genetically unrelated brothers [brothers by adoption], which is exactly the kind of pattern you would want to see if something genetic were going on. The genetically most similar brothers were also the ones most likely to be gay, by a large margin.

I doubt it would look like that if there where not a genetic factor.

 

[Bismillah]

The issue is that assuming that homosexuality is wrong, is a disease or is harming people, undermines the credability of the studies in question.

Again, can't the issue also be the assumption that religion is wrong? You can interchange homosexuality and religion and it still makes a coherent sentence and valid point.

 

[Kerr]

Again, can't the issue also be the assumption that religion is wrong? You can interchange homosexuality and religion and it still makes a coherent sentence and valid point.

You missed this part:

Personally I could not care what religion you are of, or if you are non-religous, if you do a study like that I do not trust it.

 

[Bismillah]

This does not prove that it is not genetic.

It contributes to the opinion that homosexuality is not caused by genetic reasons.

Cases where people simply become homosexuals, try to deny it but no matter how they try they still find themselves drawn to the same sex, are quite common.

Yes, so if a person becomes gay, then why did he switch his sexual preferences? Why wasn't he gay from the beginning. Does this not suggest an external stimulus?

We found 52 percent of identical twin brothers of gay men also were gay, compared with 22 percent of fraternal twins, compared with 11 percent of genetically unrelated brothers [brothers by adoption], which is exactly the kind of pattern you would want to see if something genetic were going on. The genetically most similar brothers were also the ones most likely to be gay, by a large margin.

"Michael Bailey and Richard Pillard who focused on identical twins, non-identical twins, non-adopted siblings and adopted siblings... found a 52% concordance rate for the identical twins which means that for every homosexual twin, the chances were about 50% that his twin would also be homosexual... If there is something in the genetic code that makes an individual homosexual, why did not all of the identical twins become homosexual since they have the exact same genetic endowment?... Some comparative data on twin studies [are] the concordance rate for identical twins on measures of extroversion is 50%, religiosity is 50%, divorce is 52%, racial prejudice and bigotry is 58%. From the Bailey and Pillard study one has to conclude that environmental influences play a strong role in the development of homosexuality."

 

[Bismillah]

Personally I could not care what religion you are of, or if you are non-religous, if you do a study like that I do not trust it.

I think there is a misunderstanding. You do not trust a study that finds homosexuality as not inherent? So you discount everything that goes against your opinion?

 

[Kerr]

It contributes to the opinion that homosexuality is not caused by genetic reasons.

Assuming it is black and white and have to be this or that. It doesn´t.

Yes, so if a person becomes gay, then why did he switch his sexual preferences? Why wasn't he gay from the beginning. Does this not suggest an external stimulus?

Or maybe because society hold hetrosexuality as a norm they try and be it at first.

"Michael Bailey and Richard Pillard who focused on identical twins, non-identical twins, non-adopted siblings and adopted siblings... found a 52% concordance rate for the identical twins which means that for every homosexual twin, the chances were about 50% that his twin would also be homosexual... If there is something in the genetic code that makes an individual homosexual, why did not all of the identical twins become homosexual since they have the exact same genetic endowment?... Some comparative data on twin studies [are] the concordance rate for identical twins on measures of extroversion is 50%, religiosity is 50%, divorce is 52%, racial prejudice and bigotry is 58%. From the Bailey and Pillard study one has to conclude that environmental influences play a strong role in the development of homosexuality."

If there was no genetic factor, the difference the other one talked about between identical twins and other twins probably would not exist. I never said genetics is the only factor, just that it is a factor.

 

[Kerr]

I think there is a misunderstanding. You do not trust a study that finds homosexuality as not inherent? So you discount everything that goes against your opinion?

No, I do not trust studies where you have assumptions such as it being wrong or a disease. Religion is not the issue.

 

[Bismillah]

Assuming it is black and white and have to be this or that. It doesn´t.

How come? This is a clear example of heterosexuals becoming homosexuals due to external reasons. Not hereditary traits.

Or maybe because society hold hetrosexuality as a norm they try and be it at first.

What about children raised by homosexuals? Aren't they reared in an environment where homosexuality is not a disease? Wouldn't you then expect the children, who see it as nothing odd to be homosexual, also become homosexual? Yet there is no distinguishable difference in these scenarios.
Dr. Trayce Hansen's Writings

Incidentally the article also mentions the biases that every scientist has when it comes to these studies.

If there was no genetic factor, the difference the other one talked about between identical twins and other twins probably would not exist. I never said genetics is the only factor, just that it is a factor.

But if genetics is a factor, as you claim, then why don't they have a 100% correspondence rate? They have the exact same DNA. Wouldn't the occurrences then be the result of environmental factors? A type of "group think"?

 

[Kerr]

How come? This is a clear example of heterosexuals becoming homosexuals due to external reasons. Not hereditary traits.

As I said, humans are not black and white. Our sexuality is no exception.

What about children raised by homosexuals? Aren't they reared in an environment where homosexuality is not a disease? Wouldn't you then expect the children, who see it as nothing odd to be homosexual, also become homosexual? Yet there is no distinguishable difference in these scenarios.
Dr. Trayce Hansen's Writings

Incidentally the article also mentions the biases that every scientist has when it comes to these studies.

Will assume the article is reliable now. Where did you get that idea about they all ending up from? Since homosexuality seems to have a genetic factor, it is only to expect most will not be homosexuals, even if their parents where. Also, the article does mention a difference, which would be in line with that they probably are more tolerant (sexuality is more of a spectrum then anything else). Have not read the entire article, though, and do not take my word as truth, because I am in no way someone who knows what he is talking about... a bit like most people here, I just confess it now .

But if genetics is a factor, as you claim, then why don't they have a 100% correspondence rate? They have the exact same DNA. Wouldn't the occurrences then be the result of environmental factors? A type of "group think"?

Genes say where we start the race that is our lives, they do not have to say how we will run or where we will end up.

 

[Bismillah]

As I said, humans are not black and white. Our sexuality is no exception.

How so? For example I am a heterosexual male. When I see other men I do not feel any remote sexual desires. Hence my sexuality is an absolute. These men were heterosexual, before stimulus made them view homosexuality as an acceptable outlet of their sexual feelings.

Since homosexuality seems to have a genetic factor, it is only to expect most will not be homosexuals, even if their parents where.

Ah, but the article goes on to state that the majority of children tested were the kids of couples who had been heterosexual until one confronted the other about his/her homosexuality. So even though majority of these children shared the same genetic makeup as their parents, there was no indication that they would be bought up as homosexuals.

Genes say where we start the race that is our lives, they do not have to say how we will run or where we will end up.

Hmm? But aren't you arguing that Genes control whether people are homosexual or not? Hence Genes dictate your track time from your PoV

I am in no way someone who knows what he is talking about... a bit like most people here, I just confess it now

That makes two of us. I regard this as spontaneous debating xD

 

[Kerr]

How so? For example I am a heterosexual male. When I see other men I do not feel any remote sexual desires. Hence my sexuality is an absolute. These men were heterosexual, before stimulus made them view homosexuality as an acceptable outlet of their sexual feelings.

Not really. Sexuality is very different from person to person. I, for example, am a hetrosexual, but I would lie if I said I had not wondered how it is to be homosexual. Which is why I say it is a spectrum, there are those on the edges who are more exclusive then others and there are those "closer to the middle". It is an individual matter.

Ah, but the article goes on to state that the majority of children tested were the kids of couples who had been heterosexual until one confronted the other about his/her homosexuality. So even though majority of these children shared the same genetic makeup as their parents, there was no indication that they would be bought up as homosexuals.

Inheritense is actually quite tricky. Very tricky. Even if it is only one gene, you can mostly count probability and even then you must know the nature of the gene in question (if it is dominant or not). Now that is if it is only one gene. If it is a combination of genes it becomes even more complicated. So this does not mean there is not a genetic factor, it means it is a very complicated equation.

Hmm? But aren't you arguing that Genes control whether people are homosexual or not? Hence Genes dictate your track time from your PoV

I am arguing genes are one factor. But from what I have seen and experienced I know they do not dictate who we are, and do not say where we end up.

That makes two of us. I regard this as spontaneous debating xD

Ok, I confess I just tricked you into confessing that, so I can feel superior, because I know and understand everything .

Kidding, lol.

 

[Gharib]

You seriously think you know better then me on this subject?

i have a statement made from you that backs me up.