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Question to Bahais. The Maitreya.
- Thread starter Link
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
In Quran it is said that on that Day, There is no Refuge:
"But no! There will be no refuge." 75:11
It means, since the guidance and true religion is vanished from among people, and there is no one to guide you and earth is filled with injustice, and the Religious Leaders of that time, have become evil, thus people will be left with no guidance, under pressure and this will result their souls to become ruined.
the next verse says:
"On that Day all will end up before your Lord." 75:12
It means, once there is no hope and refuge, then God manifests Himself to again bring the True Religion and the earth Shall shine with the light of God.
Verse 75:11 and 12 show the sequence of events. First the End comes, then God is manifested to save us with His Light of guidance.
"Do they wait for the fulfillment of that of which it warns? On the Day when that fulfillment comes, those who had neglected it before will say, The messengers of our Lord did indeed bring the truth. Have we then any intercessors who would intercede for us? Or, could we be sent back so that we might act differently from the way we used to? They have indeed ruined their souls and what they invented has forsaken them"
7:53
This verse is about "Souls" and this confirms, this is about those who pass away, and their soul is passed to the spiritual world.
This verse means that, when the Day of Resurrection comes, those who do not recognize Manifestation of God, and did not follow the new guidance, have caused their soul to become ruined. As soon as they pass away, their souls in the next life realizes the truth about the Manifestation and in the spiritual world regret and seek intercession or a way they could change their state.
I quote Bahaullah:
"The souls of the infidels, however, shall—and to this I bear witness—when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies." Baha'u'llah
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Baha'allah is not worth going to hell for. You can hold to whatever idols you like however, to you is your religion, and to us is ours.
Your interpretation is impossible when you keep in mind the whole of Quran. But I don't have time to play your sophistry games.
Your interpretation is impossible when you keep in mind the whole of Quran. But I don't have time to play your sophistry games.
I don't know Maitreya and Prophecies about him. It can be about Mohammad (S) or the Mahdi (A), or they might both not meet that religion's prophecies, I don't know. But for my sanity, putting all Bahais on ignore.
Wow Link, I see @InvestigateTruth has been naught but honest and open with you.
The issue you have is one of Logic and reason, a gift Allah gives our hearts.
When the Words of Allah are full of Logic and Reason we will react in one of two ways, we will embrace and submit to Allah, or we will reject Allah, there is no middle ground.
At least you now understand why the Bab was put to death and Baha'u'llah was banished, it is because their Messages contained a Logic and Reason that many have decided is of Allah. No death or banishment of a Messenger can stop that Logic and Reason.
Thus it becomes a choice.
All the best, Regards Tony
When Logic and Reason shows there is a strong possibility of what was offered, may indeed be true, it will always be a challenge for one's own soul to consider it, as it may be we need to embrace new ideas.
All the best, Regards Tony
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
But @Link, I only shared my view on those verses. You shared your view too. We just have different views. It doesn't mean we cannot be friends.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
No where in Quran they are called manifestations of God (مظاهر حق). But in our view the concept is also in the Quran. I have already shown those verses "those who differentiate between God and His Messengers... they are disbelievers" Quran says in verse:
"Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between - Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment." 4:150-151
And Allah asked everyone to bow down to Adam in prostration. Verse 2:34
Muhammad did not reveal it explicitly in the Quran, because mankind were not ready to know this fact explicitly before.
Baha'u'llah says, revelations of God are progressive, whenever humanity has a greater capacity to know more, God teaches more of the Truth. He said, there are many things, that the future Manifestations will teach, as soon as humanity is ready to accept and understand!
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Finally. If anyone is a manifestation of God, it will be said in the Qur'an as Gods word. No one has to jump so many hoops. And please dont cut and paste some arabic sentence as if that makes an impact. It doesnt. It makes you look a pretender. Last time you cut and pasted Zahara, and now you are cutting and pasting mazhar. And what is this mazar hak? You think that means manifestations of God?
Cmon mate.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Yeah. You dont have a choice but to make this kind of statement because your faith is not found in the Qur'an. Create things.
What was called a Messenger in the Quran, is now called a Manifestation in the Baha'i Writings. It is just a broader understanding of their station as Messengers.
We can use Prophets, Messengers or Manifestation and it is not restricted to those titles.
All the Messengers are one, thus they share all the Names and Titles of Allah.
Regards Tony
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Thanks. But its not in the Quran so that's the whole point. What is "Now called" is not relevant to my question the other person gave absolutely bogus answers to.
May just be a translation issue, or you could just see it a different way, as I see the Quran has offered what the Baha'i Writings also offer.
Verse 57:3
"He is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and He is All-Knowing about every thing." — Mufti Taqi Usmani
"He is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden,1 and He has knowledge of everything." — Tafheem-ul-Quran - Abul Ala Maududi
The Messenger is the "Manifest" and the Hidden, the First and the Last.
Regards Tony
firedragon
Veteran Member
Please try your best to stop cherry picking and making some of the most absurd preaching in the history of the world.
This is not talking about a messenger. This is talking about God. At least read the verse, one or two verses prior to it, and after. You know, not just do a google search or any kind of quick search. Put at least two minutes before you make this kind of absurd claim. Just two minutes is enough to be better than this.
Your tactic
1. Look for the word "Manifest" in any of the Quranic verses anywhere after googling.
2. Turn it around to suit your theology not even reading the verse and the verse prior to it.
3. Just the word is enough.
Mind boggling.
That would mostly be because you see it much differently than we do, that is all. A good study on this is "Frame of Reference".
It is only mind bloggling as one may not be aware of what Baha'u'llah has offered in regards to passages such as this, the Quran and the Self of God, who is the Messenger, the First and Last, the Beginning and End.
Baha'u'llah offered about the Messengers and starts with Muhammad, "...“I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muḥammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim, “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself...."
All these Titles and Attributes are above Allah, all we can know of Allah are these references to the Messengers, who we can now see as Manifestations of God, they are the "Self of God".
Regards Tony
firedragon
Veteran Member
But the verse is referring to God, and you claimed it was about the prophet. It is false. Thats why you should read it, not do a quick search and cut and paste something without reading the verse, and at least a few verses around it.
That is the definition of cherry picking. Of the worst kind.
I see verse 57:1 opens with a thought that adds to what I am seeing, it says "...Whatever is in the heavens and earth exalts Allah..."
I see verse 57:3 is about how Allah is known in this matrix. It is the Messengers that are the first and Last, they are the Manifest and the Hidden. No attribute name or Title can be attributed to Allah, that is my understanding. In this station they are Allah, the perfect reflection in the mirror.
To me Allah is outside time and place. In our reality, the Messenger is the first cause and is the end.
It may be this is more apparent in the Baha'i Writings, but I read the Quran in the same light.
Regards Tony
firedragon
Veteran Member
Its still only talking about God. Simple.
So you are just making something up. "I see" is not what the text says. Its what you wish to impose.
Its not being honest mate. Just a made up apologetic since you have no evidence. Bogus claim.
MyM
Well-Known Member
over 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and they will never accept this book by the bahi' as word of Allah.