Quran is free of errors

[Gharib]

Yourself included - right?

of course i'm the one who said that, whats the point of saying it if it doesn't apply to me.

This thread really needs to be shut down. It has devolved into nothing more than two zealots proseltyzing about their sacred text, and the rest of us trying to spit into the wind.

you now that statement applies to you too.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

is that the best you can do to deffend your age difference to all the other younger members here?

if so then why bring it up in the first place, we all know that there is a varying age difference here in RF, so why bring that cheap argument when there is nothing more to say.

I did not bring up the age difference, eselam. It first arose from Ymir, then you. The only reason ....

I don't know why I'm bothering to type this. It is obvious that you are simply to obtuse to understand even the most basic points in a debate, much less the more complex flow of a discussion with multiple participants.

If I could only give you the gift of rational thought ...

 

[Gharib]

I did not bring up the age difference, eselam. It first arose from Ymir, then you. The only reason ....

......why you said it is because you yourself are older and don't like what i said.

well you sure had something to say in that post about giving me credit, because it is you and Ymir that are older than anyone on here. so when Zhakir dissproved Dons' claims Ymir mentioned the age thing but he forgot that he is doing the same thing, trying to dissprove someone younger than himself.

I don't know why I'm bothering to type this. It is obvious that you are simply to obtuse to understand even the most basic points in a debate, much less the more complex flow of a discussion with multiple participants.

try me. i understand everything, is there something that you know that i don't?

If I could only give you the gift of rational thought ...

if i had the power to make you do that, i'd tell you to keep it to yourself.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

try me. i understand everything

You understand nothing. You have simply bought into the fallacy of your sacred text being inerrant, and as a result, you ignore anything that would challenge you to examine your position.

is there something that you know that i don't?

This is an absolutely classic opening for a sarcastic, acidic response. Only through great willpower will I walk away from this question.

if i had the power to make you do that, i'd tell you to keep it to yourself.

Of course you would reject such a gift, eselam. Your greatest fear is that you might actually have to use your mind to question your position. It is infinitely easier to take the path you have chosen - to blindly accept moronic drivel (like that provided by Zhakir) without reservation. It is the same for fundamentalists of all religions. You are no better (and no worse) than the fundamentalist Christians that plague our country.

 

[linwood]

if i had the power to make you do that, i'd tell you to keep it to yourself.

Wow.

:biglaugh:

 

[Gharib]

You understand nothing. You have simply bought into the fallacy of your sacred text being inerrant, and as a result, you ignore anything that would challenge you to examine your position.

well when you or someone else happens to bring about or put forth anything that challenges the quran i will take a look at it and take into consideration anything valid that is in it.

but clearly you haven't brought any argument on here appart from claiming that the quran has errors or that it isn't the word of god with no proof and no support from anywhere appart from your brain, and by saying "because i say so".

thats all you have been doing, go back and read the pages of this thread, if you have posted anything appart from what you think is true, then post it again and i will take a look at it.

This is an absolutely classic opening for a sarcastic, acidic response. Only through great willpower will I walk away from this question.

i though you were the sarcastic one.
i wasn't being sarcastic.

Of course you would reject such a gift, eselam. Your greatest fear is that you might actually have to use your mind to question your position. It is infinitely easier to take the path you have chosen - to blindly accept moronic drivel (like that provided by Zhakir) without reservation.

first of all, i havent accepted anything from zhakir unless i know it is true, i have to investigate the rest.

second of all, the path that i have chosen isn't as easy as you think. i don't see you being on my path, so you see my path is harder than yours, it takes guts to be like me. but it takes nothing to be like you (your possition).

god has given us free will so we must question everything, but then we have you who is saying that religios people like my self do not question their belief.

i did say that you only post what you think is right. didn't i.

 

[Gharib]

Wow.

:biglaugh:

is that all?

 

[McBell]

and vise versa to you.

why is it that none of you can't stand it when someone is giving clear evidence about the quran,
you guys clearly can't dissprove it, then you end up saying all sorts of trash.

please keep the tone to a minimum ok, don't use such childish words, if you can't stand it then you are free to leave, this applies to everyone.

No one has given any clear evidence in this thread that the koran is some miraculous science book.

Though some have tried with their manipulation and extension use of the forer effect.
But then, I do not expect you to see anything past the end of your nose.

You are flat out wrong about the everything you believe about the koran.
There.
Now that it has been stated, it is a fact until you prove it it wrong.
Now since I created said fact, I get to accept or toss out what I want to be proof and what I want to be nonsense.
​

Does this sound familiar?
Should.
It is the same line of crap you are trying to put past in this thread.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

well when you or someone else happens to bring about or put forth anything that challenges the quran i will take a look at it and take into consideration anything valid that is in it.

No you won't. I base that on the fact that you have not considered anything you have been presented with yet. You are lying.

i though you were the sarcastic one.
i wasn't being sarcastic.

Read it again. You completely missed what I was saying. Not that there should be any surprise in the fact that my post went right over your head ...

first of all, i havent accepted anything from zhakir unless i know it is true, i have to investigate the rest.

Again, you are lying. You investigate nothing. You accept anything that supports your desperate need for the Koran to be right, while simply ignoring anything that refutes it.

second of all, the path that i have chosen isn't as easy as you think. i don't see you being on my path, so you see my path is harder than yours,

I do not follow your path because I embrace reason and rational thought.

it takes guts to be like me. but it takes nothing to be like you (your possition).

It takes nothing but blind faith to do what you are doing. You do not follow my path because you do not ask critical questions of your chosen faith.

god has given us free will so we must question everything, but then we have you who is saying that religios people like my self do not question their belief.

If God gave you free will, then you should use it. I don't question your belief - I question why you accept it blindly, without critical thought.

 

[gnostic]

Then why does Zhakir present the Quran as a textbook to us, always telling us of its great miracles?

well thats because it is a great miracle.

What part of "science" and "miracles" don't go together that you don't understand????

Miracles required a person to not question what they see or hear or feel; religion required a person taking on blind faith that what they see, hear or feel.

Science required a person to question, test, question some more, test even some more. It doesn't just accept statement with belief, until it is either proven to be correct or incorrect.

This very title of this thread "Qur'an is free of errors", go against the very nature of science of questioning, examining, testing, verifying, the search for evidences, etc.

Skepticism and knowing that there are errors are the very foundation of science, where people seek to understand the doubts and errors of any given issue.

By saying that "Qur'an is free of errors", you don't need to understand; you just need to believe.

The very fact that you, Zhakir and other Muslims think that the Qur'an is perfect, actually undermines science.

 

[Zhakir]

You need to understand,again with any thing you claim you should bring evidences.
Quran is free of errors.
And i'll help you to understand how miracles and science go together.
Let's start with this:
11- Then He turned to the heavens, and it was in a gaseous state. And said to it, and the earth; “Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly.” They said, “We come willingly.”
41-Elucidated, 11
The arabic word used here is سماوات meaning literally skies or heavens (not paradise).
So when you can't give an explaination,this is what we call a miracle,who would have come to know this fact in the 7th century? Quran is the message of God (swt).
Quran Miracles | THE UNIVERSE IN GASEOUS STATE

 

[Gharib]

No you won't. I base that on the fact that you have not considered anything you have been presented with yet. You are lying.

but thats the problem, none of you have presented anything, so how am i lying?

zhakir is the only one presenting statements or facts to support his claims and gnostic is only trying to dissprove the translation of the verses, he claims it's not like that but it is like this. thats all, i haven't seen any proof from anyone else, appart from claiming that that quran is fake but no evidence is shown to support that claim.

Read it again. You completely missed what I was saying. Not that there should be any surprise in the fact that my post went right over your head ...

we can't all be perfect now can we.

Again, you are lying. You investigate nothing. You accept anything that supports your desperate need for the Koran to be right, while simply ignoring anything that refutes it.

well show me something that is true, and that is against the quran, let me judge it. but you haven't done that, doing it and saying it are 2 very different things

I do not follow your path because I embrace reason and rational thought.

no actually, it's because you cannot accept anything that says an unseen creator exists, thats the big problem here. you see if god was visible and we saw him use his power everytime, then we would all worship him. but it takes guts to claim that a god creator exists and to deffend that claim. thats why god is unseen, and just because he is unseen that doesn't mean he doesn't exist, he has limitless power so naturally he does what he wants.

wouldn't you do what ever you want if you had limitless power?

It takes nothing but blind faith to do what you are doing. You do not follow my path because you do not ask critical questions of your chosen faith.

too bad you are not an islamic scholar, i have tons of questions to ask.

If God gave you free will, then you should use it. I don't question your belief - I question why you accept it blindly, without critical thought.

you have never asked me such a question, but read above, that should be a good enough answer.

 

[Gharib]

No one has given any clear evidence in this thread that the koran is some miraculous science book.

the quran isn't a science book.

Though some have tried with their manipulation and extension use of the forer effect.
But then, I do not expect you to see anything past the end of your nose.

yeah, thats exactly what you are doing, i totaly agree.

You are flat out wrong about the everything you believe about the koran.
There.
Now that it has been stated, it is a fact until you prove it it wrong.
Now since I created said fact, I get to accept or toss out what I want to be proof and what I want to be nonsense.

ok i agree with that too, thats fine, but you have to accpet what is actually right, it is not up to you to decide what is wrong or what is right, it is up to the evidence provided to prove that.

so what do you want me to show you?

is there anything in particular that you want to know?


​

Does this sound familiar?
Should.
It is the same line of crap you are trying to put past in this thread.

really? i wasn't aware of that, so why are you using the same line of crap then?

 

[gnostic]

You need to understand,again with any thing you claim you should bring evidences.
Quran is free of errors.
And i'll help you to understand how miracles and science go together.
Let's start with this:
11- Then He turned to the heavens, and it was in a gaseous state. And said to it, and the earth; “Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly.” They said, “We come willingly.”
41-Elucidated, 11
The arabic word used here is سماوات meaning literally skies or heavens (not paradise).
So when you can't give an explaination,this is what we call a miracle,who would have come to know this fact in the 7th century? Quran is the message of God (swt).

Clouds don't need miracles for the clouds to exist.

What do this quote prove?

Absolutely nothing.

You are quoting what happen naturally in the sky.

Your so-called god is speaking absolutely rubbish, again stating the obvious of what come naturally in the sky. It certainly doesn't prove it is miracle. Nor do it prove it scientific.

If you call this evidence, then you certainly don't even know what evidence means.

Are all RF Muslims complete imbeciles?

And scientists don't believe in miracles. If you believe in miracles, then you're not a scientist.

 

[Gharib]

Are all RF Muslims complete imbeciles?

gnostic, i would urge you to not use such words.

 

[gnostic]

gnostic, i would urge you to not use such words.

Are Muslims going to stop using the term "scientific miracle"?

Do Muslims understand that no real scientists believe in miracles?

Do Muslims understand how evidences are found or gain?

Do Muslims understand the distinction between "truth" and "fact"?

If Muslims don't understand the difference between science and religion, then yes they are imbeciles, because they keep saying the modern science are divine "signs", then I can't change my feeling towards Muslims. You're no better than the creationists and IDs that I despised, because you're trying to mix religion with science. They are imbeciles as well.

The more stupid Qur'an verses I see, the more convinced that I am of the Muslim being imbecile scientifically.

For scientists, doubts and skepticism are actually good, because you are require to seek and understand knowledge. The insistence by Muslims that the Qur'an is perfect and free of errors, actually goes against the very foundation of science. And that what's at fault with Islam, because it doesn't understand science.

 

[gnostic]

If the Qur'an is perfect and free from errors, then why is people can interpret the texts in any way they like?

And why can the Qur'an can be insanely cryptic, and stupidly obscure?

And why is it not free from ambiguity?

 

[Gharib]

i did say to Voice of Reason that you do not know anything. let me explain

Are Muslims going to stop using the term "scientific miracle"?

the reason why they are called "miracles" is because they were said/written 1400 years ago, and science as we know it has just recently proved those things, there was no proof to go for or against the claims in the quran.

they are actually scientific but because they are very old, by which they could not have been known at teh time of their writting, they are called miracles.

do you know what a miracle is?

Do Muslims understand that no real scientists believe in miracles?

do you understand that the main principal of scientists is "have faith"

scientists do not believe in miracles because they try to prove things, give a deffinition about it's existence.

why don't most scientists believe in god?
because they are waiting for science to prove it. but that won't happen.

and why are there scientists that believe in god?
they believe that he is the creator and refuse darwins claims.

but these scientists aren't real to you because they are against your way of thinking.

Do Muslims understand how evidences are found or gain?

do you think we are that dumb?
if so then what are you doing here, if you think that we do not know what is evidence or how it is gained to support something.

who would say that dogs are faster than humans if that wasn't proven.

Do Muslims understand the distinction between "truth" and "fact"?

yeah of course. truth is the opposite of lying, fact is something that supports a claim which is for or against something.

If Muslims don't understand the difference between science and religion, then yes they are imbeciles, because they keep saying the modern science are divine "signs", then I can't change my feeling towards Muslims. You're no better than the creationists and IDs that I despised, because you're trying to mix religion with science.

in islam science is part of religion, it is a branch of religion to be more specific.

but people such as athiest, who are a great number of scientists, are trying to prove to people that science and religion cannot be mixed, seeing that science is something with proof and religion something with belief. but the main reason for doing that is because they cannot accept god, so they have made science a contradiction to religion, but it is not like that in islam.

if you don't like that, thats fine, do as you please.

The more stupid Qur'an verses I see, the more convinced that I am of the Muslim being imbecile scientifically.

well then there is something wrong with you, go see a psychiatrist.
do you want me to call Dr. Kiddman?

For scientists, doubts and skepticism are actually good, because you are require to seek and understand knowledge. The insistence by Muslims that the Qur'an is perfect and free of errors, actually goes against the very foundation of science. And that what's at fault with Islam, because it doesn't understand science.

the reason we say that the quran has no errors is because it has been proven so. there are facts, and one of the most obvious facts is the quran itself. you cannot find an error in it nor a contradiction. let alone the other examples that are in it, such as, well lets say, the scientific claims.

 

[Gharib]

If the Qur'an is perfect and free from errors, then why is people can interpret the texts in any way they like?

the only way that the quran makes any actuall sense is if you read it in arabic.
the only thing you see in english is just the meaning of the words, it is not the actual quran. thats why there are so many different interpretations/versions of it in english, each translator is trying to use words that best suite the ones in arabic, but in the end it still doesn't make sense.

And why can the Qur'an can be insanely cryptic, and stupidly obscure?

And why is it not free from ambiguity?

can you tell me what the following mean;

cryptic
obscure
ambiguity

i can't say anything unless i know what they mean.

 

[gnostic]

I will give you an example on ambiguity.

Let's use the example that we have already used.

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

Me and Zhakir have been debating the interpretations of this verse.

I clearly see that the orbits of both the sun and moon, around the earth. Although, the "earth" is not mentioned here, it clearly make reference to sun and moon, and then night and day, so this is related to its interaction.

Zhakir on the other hand, think that the Qur'an means that the sun orbits around the galaxy. However, there's no word "galaxy" in that verse (just as there are no "earth" in my interpretation); and even if it didn't use galaxy, it also don't mention other stars.

Anyway, here is the ambiguity. It does say what orbit around what, so it could mean just about anything. If the verse actually stated "galaxy" or "earth", then this verse would have been free from ambiguity. But since it doesn't, it is not clear what it mean, unless you apply interpretation.

Do you understand?

The other two words are all related to not "being clear".