Quran is free of errors

Gharib · May 14, 2009

gnostic said:
I will give you an example on ambiguity.

Let's use the example that we have already used.

Me and Zhakir have been debating the interpretations of this verse.

I clearly see that the orbits of both the sun and moon, around the earth. Although, the "earth" is not mentioned here, it clearly make reference to sun and moon, and then night and day, so this is related to its interaction.

Zhakir on the other hand, think that the Qur'an means that the sun orbits around the galaxy. However, there's no word "galaxy" in that verse (just as there are no "earth" in my interpretation); and even if it didn't use galaxy, it also don't mention other stars.

Anyway, here is the ambiguity. It does say what orbit around what, so it could mean just about anything. If the verse actually stated "galaxy" or "earth", then this verse would have been free from ambiguity. But since it doesn't, it is not clear what it mean, unless you apply interpretation.

Do you understand?

The other two words are all related to not "being clear".

ok now i understand, i will answer your questions, the ones that you asked before

Gharib · May 14, 2009

gnostic said:
And why can the Qur'an can be insanely cryptic, and stupidly obscure?

ok so cryptic and obscure means "to be clear"

so your question is;

why can the quran be insanely unlear and stupidly unclear, right?

the reason why it is so, is due to knowing who actually understands it or not or who actually has the knowledge of the quran.

it isn't there for people such as you and me to discuss that from our own mind, but we need to use examples about it. thats why you and zhakir cannot come to a conclussion, both of you need to actually read the interpretation of that verse from a scholar who ctually has studied all similar verses and has given his oppinion on it.

you and i can claim what we want (interpret in a way that best suits or claims) but thats not the meaning of the verse.

And why is it not free from ambiguity?

i did say that science is a branch of religion in islam right.

so Allah tells us about things in brief for us to verify them and seek evidences to verify them, science has come out of religion in islam due to the ambiguoty of many verses.

does that help now?

Fatihah · May 14, 2009

gnostic said:
If the Qur'an is perfect and free from errors, then why is people can interpret the texts in any way they like?

And why can the Qur'an can be insanely cryptic, and stupidly obscure?

And why is it not free from ambiguity?

Response: The only ambiguity the qur'an has are in a few verses but they can be cleared up when reading and studying all the qur'anic verses within its context. Those who have different interpretations are either not gifted in the knowledge of islam or they are purposely seeking discourse to follow their own agenda. In fact, the qur'an speaks about its ambiguity in ch.3:7 of the qur'an.

Gharib · May 14, 2009

Fatihah said:
Response: The only ambiguity the qur'an has are in a few verses but they can be cleared up when reading and studying all the qur'anic verses within its context. Those who have different interpretations are either not gifted in the knowledge of islam or they are purposely seeking discourse to follow their own agenda. In fact, the qur'an speaks about its ambiguity in ch.3:7 of the qur'an.

thanks brother, i didn't know that.

gnostic · May 14, 2009

eselam said:
ok so cryptic and obscure means "to be clear"

No, cryptic and obscure, also mean "not clear". You have misread my last line.

gnostic said:
The other two words are all related to not "being clear".

Technical, "cryptic" is deliberately making it unclear; this can done by scrambling the message.

Gharib · May 14, 2009

gnostic said:
No, cryptic and obscure, also mean "not clear". You have misread my last line.

Technical, "cryptic" is deliberately making it unclear; this can done by scrambling the message.

oh, sorry for the missinterpretation my bad.

well the reason why they are done so, is for people to discover them. like i said to Don, islam is a starting point to many things if not all. we are given a starting point and we are encouraged to make discoveries, islam isn't just praying, it's much more than that and thats how the branch of science came out of the religion.vague statements are used by Allah (swt) to encourage us to see things and discover more things. he speaks about the universe in so little detail, and infact there are so many things in the universe that we can know.

thats the reason for those verses, you see such verses speaking about biology, geology, astronomy, and the weather (i don't know what that branch is called, it's probably astronomy)

then there are verses that speak about death, about cures about all sorts of things, all are vague informations to todays many branches of study.

Zhakir · May 14, 2009

gnostic said:
Clouds don't need miracles for the clouds to exist.

What do this quote prove?

Absolutely nothing.

You are quoting what happen naturally in the sky.

Your so-called god is speaking absolutely rubbish, again stating the obvious of what come naturally in the sky. It certainly doesn't prove it is miracle. Nor do it prove it scientific.

If you call this evidence, then you certainly don't even know what evidence means.

Are all RF Muslims complete imbeciles?

And scientists don't believe in miracles. If you believe in miracles, then you're not a scientist.

Tell that to the scientists who converted to islam.
You refuse to answer,and yet you talk too much. But for how long?
Are you ready reply now or what?
Try again
Earth rotates,how did The people of the 7th century find that out?
http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=42

themadhair · May 14, 2009

Zhakir said:
Tell that to the scientists who converted to islam.

Tell it to the ex-muslims too.

Earth rotates,how did The people of the 7th century find that out?

They didnt. You are deliberately and wantonly over-interpreting a verse to force it into reconciling with knowledge discovered since.

Isnt the following verse not pretty clear in that regard:

Sura 27:61 said:
Is not he the best who made the earth a fixed abode,<1> and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein,<2> and hath set a barrier between the two seas<3>? Is there any God beside Allah ? Nay, but most of them know not!

1 pretty clearly describes the earth as fixed.

2 is outright false because of plate tectonics.

3 is outright false because of pangea.

Zhakir · May 14, 2009

Tell that to the scientists who converted to islam.
The biggest list of converts is to islam
List of converts to Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's the fastest growin religion in the world
CNN WORLD NEWS: Islam is the fastest-growing religion
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.i...

Islam is Fastest Growing Religion in United States:
http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a1...

Times on line: Thousands of british people convert to islam every year:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk...

Why European women are turning to Islam:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1227/p01s0...

Washington Post: Islam Luring More Latinos
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn...

CNN News 1.5 Million Americans coverted to ISLAM in USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKKntnZAw...

NBC: WHY 20,000 Americans convert to Islam annually?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49Ud-LUIM...

They didn’t. You are deliberately and wantonly over-interpreting a verse to force it into reconciling with knowledge discovered since.

Click to expand...

Just try to give a reply to what the verse say.
88- When you look at the mountains, you think that they are standing still. But they are moving like clouds. Such is the artistry of God, who disposes of all things in perfect order. He is indeed fully aware of what you do.
27-The Ant, 88

Earth rotates,how did The people of the 7th century find that out?

http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=42

Is not he the best who made the earth a fixed abode,<1> and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein,<2> and hath set a barrier between the two seas<3>? Is there any God beside Allah ? Nay, but most of them know not!
1 pretty clearly describes the earth as fixed.

2 is outright false because of plate tectonics.

3 is outright false because of pangea.

27:61
أَمَّن جَعَلَ الْأَرْضَ قَرَارًا وَجَعَلَ خِلَالَهَا أَنْهَارًا وَجَعَلَ لَهَا رَوَاسِيَ وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ حَاجِزًا أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar betweenthe two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides Allah?Nay, most of them know not.

The is what the Quran says.the correct translation for the original text
Made the erath fixed in Arabic is جعل الأرض ثابتة ,not what 27:61 says.

themadhair · May 14, 2009

Zhakir said:
27:61
أَمَّن جَعَلَ الْأَرْضَ قَرَارًا وَجَعَلَ خِلَالَهَا أَنْهَارًا وَجَعَلَ لَهَا رَوَاسِيَ وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ حَاجِزًا أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar betweenthe two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides Allah?Nay, most of them know not.

See the red. Plate tectonics show this to be utterly false.

Since when is the earth firm..?? Volcanic activity anyone?

Why do you folks seem to insist on linking to outdated sources of conversion numbers when the latest data shows that non-belief is the fastest rising? Would that be more picking and choosing? Would it also be a totally irrelevant argumentum ad populum?

Don Penguinoini · May 14, 2009

themadhair said:
See the red. Plate tectonics show this to be utterly false.

Since when is the earth firm..?? Volcanic activity anyone?

Why do you folks seem to insist on linking to outdated sources of conversion numbers when the latest data shows that non-belief is the fastest rising? Would that be more picking and choosing? Would it also be a totally irrelevant argumentum ad populum?

Well, if it isn't in the Quran, then i will not believe it. :no:

Zhakir · May 14, 2009

27:61
أَمَّن جَعَلَ الْأَرْضَ قَرَارًا وَجَعَلَ خِلَالَهَا أَنْهَارًا وَجَعَلَ لَهَا رَوَاسِيَ وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ حَاجِزًا أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar betweenthe two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides Allah?Nay, most of them know not.

The is what the Quran says.the correct translation for the original text
Made the erath fixed in Arabic is جعل الأرض ثابتة ,not what 27:61 says.
What is the Arabic

__________________
See red,if you disagree then what's the Arabic for
The earth is fixed?
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en#en|ar|The%20earth%20is%20fixed
As i told you الأرض ثابتة
Which is no where in The glorious Quran.

themadhair · May 14, 2009

Zhakir said:
27:61
أَمَّن جَعَلَ الْأَرْضَ قَرَارًا وَجَعَلَ خِلَالَهَا أَنْهَارًا وَجَعَلَ لَهَا رَوَاسِيَ وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ حَاجِزًا أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar betweenthe two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides Allah?Nay, most of them know not.

The is what the Quran says.the correct translation for the original text
Made the erath fixed in Arabic is جعل الأرض ثابتة ,not what 27:61 says.
What is the Arabic

__________________
See red,if you disagree then what's the Arabic for
The earth is fixed?
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en#en|ar|The%20earth%20is%20fixed
As i told you الأرض ثابتة
Which is no where in The glorious Quran.

Why did you ignore my previous comment which used the above translation you provided?

The Voice of Reason · May 14, 2009

Taken directly from the Book of Reason:

You are so patently wrong, that you are giving islam a bad name.
If you would take the time to actually read something other than the Koran, or, God Forbid, a secular text, you might actually learn to think and use your brain.
If you cannot understand the truth of the passage i quoted above, you will burn on the shores of ignorance for all eternity (as it is written somewhere else in the holy text).

One last piece of advice for Zhakir and eselam. Be sure that you adhere to the following piece of scripture, lest you wallow in the darkness for too long:
Throw off the yoke of stupidity, and come into the light.

Peace be unto you.

Zhakir · May 14, 2009

Tvor,I'm trying to prove that he mistranslates Quran, and this is easy for me
Arabic is a living language.The UN will tell you that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en#en|ar|The%20earth%20is%20fixed

Originally Posted by Zhakir

27:61
أَمَّن جَعَلَ الْأَرْضَ قَرَارًا وَجَعَلَ خِلَالَهَا أَنْهَارًا وَجَعَلَ لَهَا رَوَاسِيَ وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ حَاجِزًا أَإِلَهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar betweenthe two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides Allah?Nay, most of them know not.

The is what the Quran says.the correct translation for the original text
Made the erath fixed in Arabic is جعل الأرض ثابتة ,not what 27:61 says.
What is the Arabic

__________________
See red,if you disagree then what's the Arabic for
The earth is fixed?
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en#en|ar|The%20earth%20is%20fixed
As i told you الأرض ثابتة
Which is no where in The glorious Quran.

themadhair · May 14, 2009

Zhakir said:
Tvor,I'm trying to prove that he mistranslates Quran

You do realise that I rephrased my response on the basis of your translation....?

Zhakir · May 14, 2009

themadhair said:
You do realise that I rephrased my response on the basis of your translation....?

Go on

themadhair · May 14, 2009

You could have just read my post where I addressed your new translation Zhakir.

Zhakir · May 14, 2009

themadhair said:
See the red. Plate tectonics show this to be utterly false.

Since when is the earth firm..?? Volcanic activity anyone?

Why do you folks seem to insist on linking to outdated sources of conversion numbers when the latest data shows that non-belief is the fastest rising? Would that be more picking and choosing? Would it also be a totally irrelevant argumentum ad populum?

The Mountains are immovable from earth.
But they Move with earth
88- When you look at the mountains, you think that they are standing still. But they are moving like clouds. Such is the artistry of God, who disposes of all things in perfect order. He is indeed fully aware of what you do.
27-The Ant, 88 .
Another thing that mountains do,is that they prevent earth from shaking this is what مستقر or قرار used in the verse translated firm means.
The earth according to the Quran Moves but doesn't shake.
21:30-32
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? Wemade from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.
And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)!
-----------------------
This was recently discoverd,Again how did these people of the 7th century know
That mountain prevent earth from shaking?
Quran Miracles | MOUNTAINS AS PEGS

31- “And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm lest it should shake with them.”
21-The Prophets, 31

Actually, the crust of the earth floats on a liquid. This outermost layer of the earth extends 5 km from the surface. The depths of the mountain strata go as far down as 35 km. Thus, the mountains are sort of pegs driven into the earth. Just like the pegs used to stabilize a tent on the ground, so these pegs stabilize the crust of the earth. Mountains are the outcome of collisions between strata of the earth’s crust; the result of the encroachment of a given stratum on another one. These strata that go deeper and deeper enable the crust layers to
integrate.

Isostasy is defined in the Webster’s Third New Twentieth Century Dictionary as follows: “Isostasy is the general equilibrium in the earth’s crust, maintained by a yielding flow of rock material beneath the surface under gravitate stress, and by the approximate equality in mass of each unit column of the earth from the surface to a depth of about 100 km.” At a time when mountains were viewed as mere prominences, the Quran’s reference to mountains’ strata invisible to the eye and their stabilization role leaves us in awe.

themadhair · May 14, 2009

Zhakir said:
The Mountains are immovable from earth.
But they Move with earth

This is simply over interpretation Zhakir. You are simply bending the koran over backwards to make it fit reality. You are free to do so, but you do much more damage to your claim of the koran being divine when you do such revisionistic tactics like this. You cant claim the koran is scientific when makes the two contradictory claims that mountains are both immoveable and are moving like clouds.

Considering that one of the central reason science has the power it does is due to its unambiguous nature, to claim that the most ambiguous passages of the koran are scientific is wellsimple pointless.

Another thing that mountains do,is that they prevent earth from shaking this is what مستقر or قرار used in the verse translated firm means.

I had one of the most pathetic idiotic debates with Fatihah over this. It starts here and continues with some of the daftest linguistic and mental gymnastics Ive ever seen from someone in denial. Mountains do not prevent shaking since mountain regions are among the most active earthquake regions on earth. Feel free to attempt a response in that thread Im wondering can you actually manage to be even more ridiculous than Fatihah was?

Quran is free of errors

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