Race riots in England

[icehorse]

Oh, some grifter with a spiel on youtube. Classic.

Well he's honest enough to make a series of very clear, unambiguous claims.

 

[RestlessSoul]

First off, you clearly don't know me, so lay off the personal insults.

Now to your point: I think we should take people at their word, don't you? Being a Muslim is a choice (or is it?). Sure, let's say that being a Muslim is a choice. If a person grows up in a Muslim society, I'm sure it's not easy to leave the faith, but it IS possible. So if a person chooses to be a Muslim that has meaning in the world. At the very least it means:

- You believe the Quran to be the perfect, timeless, unalterable word of god.
- You believe Muhammad's life was the perfect role model for how to be a good Muslim.

Do you agree so far?

I take people as I find them, and believe that actions speak louder than words. So no, I don't agree with your line of reasoning thus far, and I certainly don't judge millions of people on the basis of their religious affiliation.

 

[icehorse]

I take people as I find them, and believe that actions speak louder than words. So no, I don't agree with your line of reasoning thus far, and I certainly don't judge millions of people on the basis of their religious affiliation.

But being a Muslim IS an ongoing series of actions, right? It strikes me that you might be guilty of the bigotry of low expectations. As if you're saying "Oh most Muslims don't really believe what Islam says they must believe."

As for judging people based on religious affiliations, well not all religions are the same. Do you disagree with what I said concerning the two beliefs fundamental to Islam?

 

[muhammad_isa]

But being a Muslim IS an ongoing series of actions, right?

Being a human being is "an ongoing series of actions"..
Judging people by their religion is like judging a person for being a particularly color or nationality.

Would you judge Catholicism by the actions of the IRA?

 

[icehorse]

Being a human being is "an ongoing series of actions"..
Judging people by their religion is like judging a person for being a particularly color or nationality.

Would you judge Catholicism by the actions of the IRA?

That's simply not true. Some things about a person cannot be changed, and we should not judge a person by those IMMUTABLE characteristics like color, sex, ethnicity and so on.

But religion is a choice, and of course we must be able to judge people by the choices they make.

 

[RestlessSoul]

But being a Muslim IS an ongoing series of actions, right? It strikes me that you might be guilty of the bigotry of low expectations. As if you're saying "Oh most Muslims don't really believe what Islam says they must believe."

As for judging people based on religious affiliations, well not all religions are the same. Do you disagree with what I said concerning the two beliefs fundamental to Islam?

Well I think I have a better idea of where you are coming from now, and where your disingenuous questions are leading. And I have no wish to go there, thanks; call it what you want, but it sure looks like religious bigotry to me.

 

[icehorse]

Well I think I have a better idea of where you are coming from now, and where your disingenuous questions are leading. And I have no wish to go there, thanks; call it what you want, but it sure looks like religious bigotry to me.

And how exactly am I being disingenuous?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..religion is a choice, and of course we must be able to judge people by the choices they make..

I made a choice 50 years ago, and haven't regretted it.

I was raised as a Christian in a Christian town. I discovered Islam in my travels and at first,
I found it unacceptable .. harsh, compared to my protestant roots.

..but it was destined to be. When one sees the truth in something, one can either
pretend that it isn't the truth(because it doesn't suit them), or they can embrace it fully.

..so what judgement do you pronounce on that? That I'm stupid, or have some underlying motive?
What, exactly?

 

[icehorse]

I made a choice 50 years ago, and haven't regretted it.

I was raised as a Christian in a Christian town. I discovered Islam in my travels and at first,
I found it unacceptable .. harsh, compared to my protestant roots.

..but it was destined to be. When one sees the truth in something, one can either
pretend that it isn't the truth(because it doesn't suit them), or they can embrace it fully.

..so what judgement do you pronounce on that? That I'm stupid, or have some underlying motive?
What, exactly?

There are implications associated with your choice. One is that you should expect people who live in a secular society to be suspicious of you. We do not want theocracy. If you want to live in a theocracy go find one, don't try to subvert secular societies.

If you say you prefer secular societies then you're wanting to eat your cake and have it too. It is not logically possible to be a Muslim and want to live in a secular society. Somewhere in that mix is some severe cognitive dissonance.

However, there is at least one group that I'm aware of, the Muslim Reform Movement, that is taking the stance that Islam must be reformed and made honest. If that's where you're coming from, hooray!

 

[muhammad_isa]

We do not want theocracy..

You mean, you don't want a military dictatorship? Nor do I.
Are you assuming that Muslims in Western countries want that?

If you say you prefer secular societies then you're wanting to eat your cake and have it too..

King or Republic etc. etc.
It is not a matter of what I prefer, IMO.
It is a matter of what we ALL prefer .. unless people want to spread evil.
..and then you end up with a civil war.

It is not logically possible to be a Muslim and want to live in a secular society.

No .. what you really mean, is that you would rather have a govt. consisting of atheists,
rather than one consisting of believers.

..there is at least one group that I'm aware of, the Muslim Reform Movement, that is taking the stance that Islam must be reformed and made honest..

No .. it is already "honest" .. but people might not be .. furthermore, they might not be educated.

 

[icehorse]

You mean, you don't want a military dictatorship? Nor do I.
Are you assuming that Muslims in Western countries want that?

Please don't tell me what I mean. Feel free to ask for clarifications, but do not tell me what I mean. thanks.

Every Muslim must defend the Quran. Every Muslim must agree with the messages in the Quran. The Quran strongly advocates for theocratic rule. So if I take Muslims at their word, then I have to conclude - not assume, but conclude - that unless a Muslim is advocating for Islam to be reformed, they support theocracy.

King or Republic etc. etc.
It is not a matter of what I prefer, IMO.
It is a matter of what we ALL prefer .. unless people want to spread evil.
..and then you end up with a civil war.

Well I don't want to live in a theocracy, and therefore I don't want people who do, to move to my neighborhood.

No .. what you really mean, is that you would rather have a govt. consisting of atheists,
rather than one consisting of believers.

Again, do not tell me what I mean.

What I really want is what we already have in the US, the separation of church and state. I can accept that individual politicians might be religious, but they need to check their religion at the door when they are at work.

No .. it is already "honest" .. but people might not be .. furthermore, they might not be educated.

Do you agree that all Muslims must support fighting for theocracy?

 

[Yerda]

"We should be suspicious of them

They can't live in a secular society.

They must support fighting for theocracy.

I don't want them in my neighbourhood."

 

[England my lionheart]

“But right wing popularists, like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, etc. do cause division.”

They have the right to an opinion,ya know,that old thing called free speech ,I have no time for any of them but they have that right.

Don’t worry though,Keir Stalin will put a stop to that and free speech,the Labour Party have already adopted the APPG definition of islamophobia

“rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness”

Source Labour's Islamophobia Policy – The Labour Party

Afaik None been arrested for causing an insurrection but people need to use critical thinking whe listening to them

 

[England my lionheart]

Oh, some grifter with a spiel on youtube. Classic.

He’s a comedian and news presenter,he makes incitful and interesting observations.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you agree that all Muslims must support fighting for theocracy?

No, I don't. We must fight to rid our nation of evil.
I believe in democracy .. and a peaceful coexistence, where people don't violently
force their opinions on others.

 

[Secret Chief]

Keir Stalin

Have we moved on from Two Tier Keir then? How about Keir Stasi? I thought of that one all by myself.

 

[England my lionheart]

I like the Stalin one more,got more meaning to it

 

[icehorse]

"We should be suspicious of them

They can't live in a secular society.

They must support fighting for theocracy.

I don't want them in my neighbourhood."

And your point is?

If you think any of those statements are wrong, then I'd say you ought to sit yourself down and read the Quran.

 

[icehorse]

No, I don't. We must fight to rid our nation of evil.
I believe in democracy .. and a peaceful coexistence, where people don't violently
force their opinions on others.

I'm glad to hear that, sincerely. But in saying that, you are going against what the Quran instructs you to do.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..in saying that, you are going against what the Quran instructs you to do..

It instructs us to defend ourselves, from people who want to annihilate us.
..and no .. that does NOT include terrorism.

It becomes difficult in wars .. people become enraged, and kill civilians knowingly.
Peace can only be established when:

1. we all want peace
2. we don't spread / encourage evil