Religion is fundamentally divisive. That's not helping!

[SalixIncendium]

I'll say a prayer tonight for inclusivity and critical thinking.

Also, in the spirit of FB, liking this post will probably help resolve the inclusivity/critical thinking issue.

 

[Augustus]

Well from a systems thinking perspective you could say that about anything, so that seems like a sort of lame, get-out-of-jail-free debating ploy, no?


You asked for another example of a potentially unifying topic. Getting into a separate discussion about economic systems is a topic for a different thread.

You are missing the point completely. Humans are divided by their nature, not by things like religion.

It's not a "ploy" to point this out, the fact remains the environment is very political and therefore not something humans are good at uniting round.

And some platitude like "reducing income inequality" is about as much use as saying "diversity equity and inclusion" is a potentially unifying topic. You don't seem to think "woke" DEI culture has unified us very well though, do you? Why do you think that is? Surely no one can object to something as noble as DEI?

There is no point in engaging in magical thinking about humans uniting around some vague platitude when any method for achieving this goal would be intensely political and divisive. This is because it involves diverse groups of humans who cannot help but see the world through contrasting lenses based on differing interests and group identities.

This is especially true when ones political identity is increasingly becoming the highest marker of identity for many.

 

[Jimmy]

I've shared with you one of my core beliefs that could be categorized as "magical thinking". We all do some magical thinking, sometimes, you just seem to be - I don't know - embarrassed by yours?

Embarrassed? No. Intelligent enough to recognize some have no respect for others beliefs? Yes.

 

[paarsurrey]

Humanity is facing enormous problems these days. Climate change will likely displace a BILLION people from their homes in the next few decades. We're running out of fresh water and topsoil. We're likely to face huge crop failures and food shortages.

We need to work together, if we're to survive.

Religion is fundamentally divisive, not inclusive. Sure, there are exceptions. But mostly religion is divisive. Either you're a Muslim, or you're not. Either you're a Christian or you're not. This "us vs. them" worldview is exactly what we DO NOT NEED at this critical juncture.

We need inclusive, critical thinking. We do not need divisive, magical thinking.

And while I'm at it, most identity politics these days shares a lot in common with religion. The most important / destructive way in which this is true is in the establishment and defense of DOGMA. We need new dogma like we need a hole in the head.

Back in the 60s and 70s we used to say "question authority". It's still good advice, but I'd amend it a bit and say:

"Question authority and question dogma".

I don't agree with one here, the truthful religion is basically uniting, isn't it the non-belief in the truthful G-d that is divisive, please? Right?

Regards

 

[icehorse]

You are missing the point completely. Humans are divided by their nature, not by things like religion.

There is a lot of evidence to support you claim that we're divisive by nature. But it seems to me that if we cannot change our naturre in this regard, we're doomed. And my argument is that - hard as it might be - we must find ways to work together. Religion - among other things - is a force that encourages divisiveness. It's not the only such force, but it is an important one.

It's not a "ploy" to point this out, the fact remains the environment is very political and therefore not something humans are good at uniting round.

Oligarchs and politicians have made the environment political, but I do not believe it's political on it's own. And again, some of your arguments appear to boil down to "it's hard". Well I agree it's hard, but I do not believe we have a choice.

And some platitude like "reducing income inequality" is about as much use as saying "diversity equity and inclusion" is a potentially unifying topic.

You asked me for an example of another unifying topic. I would say that in general unifying topics have mostly been reduced to platitudes. That does not make them unimportant or invalid does it?

You don't seem to think "woke" DEI culture has unified us very well though, do you? Why do you think that is? Surely no one can object to something as noble as DEI?

This is a tangent but what the heck: Many of the people who claim to be all about DEI are in practice the opposite. They have created a new dogma, and that makes them quite hypocritical.

This is because it involves diverse groups of humans who cannot help but see the world through contrasting lenses based on differing interests and group identities.

A livable climate ought to completely level the "different interests" playing field, no?

This is especially true when ones political identity is increasingly becoming the highest marker of identity for many.

Well if you're concerned about identity politics, this is a point where we agree.

 

[YoursTrue]

Humanity is facing enormous problems these days. Climate change will likely displace a BILLION people from their homes in the next few decades. We're running out of fresh water and topsoil. We're likely to face huge crop failures and food shortages.

We need to work together, if we're to survive.

Religion is fundamentally divisive, not inclusive. Sure, there are exceptions. But mostly religion is divisive. Either you're a Muslim, or you're not. Either you're a Christian or you're not. This "us vs. them" worldview is exactly what we DO NOT NEED at this critical juncture.

We need inclusive, critical thinking. We do not need divisive, magical thinking.

And while I'm at it, most identity politics these days shares a lot in common with religion. The most important / destructive way in which this is true is in the establishment and defense of DOGMA. We need new dogma like we need a hole in the head.

Back in the 60s and 70s we used to say "question authority". It's still good advice, but I'd amend it a bit and say:

"Question authority and question dogma".

What good will it do? People know things like concrete pavement when building causes flooding in areas, do you think that will change, or cause people to get rid of concrete? Besides, will that stop death?

 

[icehorse]

Embarrassed? No. Intelligent enough to recognize some have no respect for others beliefs? Yes.

It's not about respect, it's about being honest about the nature of one's beliefs.

 

[YoursTrue]

There is a lot of evidence to support you claim that we're divisive by nature. But it seems to me that if we cannot change our naturre in this regard, we're doomed. And my argument is that - hard as it might be - we must find ways to work together. Religion - among other things - is a force that encourages divisiveness. It's not the only such force, but it is an important one.



Oligarchs and politicians have made the environment political, but I do not believe it's political on it's own. And again, some of your arguments appear to boil down to "it's hard". Well I agree it's hard, but I do not believe we have a choice.

You asked me for an example of another unifying topic. I would say that in general unifying topics have mostly been reduced to platitudes. That does not make them unimportant or invalid does it?


This is a tangent but what the heck: Many of the people who claim to be all about DEI are in practice the opposite. They have created a new dogma, and that makes them quite hypocritical.


A livable climate ought to completely level the "different interests" playing field, no?


Well if you're concerned about identity politics, this is a point where we agree.

So is there a God or isn't there? I agree religion certainly has been a divisive force. Yet I believe in a supreme God over all who will take action.

 

[icehorse]

I don't agree with one here, the truthful religion is basically uniting, isn't it the non-belief in the truthful G-d that is divisive, please? Right?

Regards

but religions do not agree with each other, right?

 

[icehorse]

So is there a God or isn't there? I agree religion certainly has been a divisive force. Yet I believe in a supreme God over all who will take action.

This reminds me of the old joke about the guy standing on his roof during a flood, praying for god to help him. A rowboat drifts by and the man keeps praying. ultimately the man drowns and goes to heaven. he criticizes god for not answering his prayers, and god says: "what are you talking about, I sent you a boat"

Even if I believed in god, I would say that he has given us plenty of signs that we must act to save the planet. He might well say to us, "what part of Antarctica melting was not a clear enough message for you?"

==

Put another way, you must NOT be one of those old fashioned "God helps them, what helps themselves" sort of people?

 

[Jimmy]

This reminds me of the old joke about the guy standing on his roof during a flood, praying for god to help him. A rowboat drifts by and the man keeps praying. ultimately the man drowns and goes to heaven. he criticizes god for not answering his paryers, and god says: "what are you talking about, I sent you a boat"

Even if I believed in god, I would say that he has given us plenty of signs that we must act to save the planet. He might well say to us, "what part of Antarctica melting was not a clear enough message for you?"

Well we all just evolved and kept growing. It's no one's fault. We can't just take everyone's vehicle away. So the best we can do is keep plugging away at better technology and hope for the best.

 

[icehorse]

Well we all just evolved and kept growing. It's no one's fault.

Through the centuries religious "holy men" have tended to want to keep women and girls as ignorant as possible. When women are girls are given good educations, they tend to have fewer children. A HUGE factor in our current disaster is that there are simply too many people on the planet, and religion and other divisive forces have exacerbated the population problem.

 

[YoursTrue]

This reminds me of the old joke about the guy standing on his roof during a flood, praying for god to help him. A rowboat drifts by and the man keeps praying. ultimately the man drowns and goes to heaven. he criticizes god for not answering his prayers, and god says: "what are you talking about, I sent you a boat"

Even if I believed in god, I would say that he has given us plenty of signs that we must act to save the planet. He might well say to us, "what part of Antarctica melting was not a clear enough message for you?"

==

Put another way, you must NOT be one of those old fashioned "God helps them, what helps themselves" sort of people?

No I'm not. I heard that joke a while back. It's kind of cute. I believe when Jesus prayed ",Let your kingdom come," there's a lot to that prayer and I'm looking forward to the time it (God's kingdom or rulership) will change things on this earth because....anyway
...it is apparent that mankind cannot/is not doing what is right. Some may try to help others but again, that will not solve the Earth's problems. Plus only God can do away with death. Hope that helps to explain what I believe and hope for.

 

[YoursTrue]

This reminds me of the old joke about the guy standing on his roof during a flood, praying for god to help him. A rowboat drifts by and the man keeps praying. ultimately the man drowns and goes to heaven. he criticizes god for not answering his prayers, and god says: "what are you talking about, I sent you a boat"

Even if I believed in god, I would say that he has given us plenty of signs that we must act to save the planet. He might well say to us, "what part of Antarctica melting was not a clear enough message for you?"

==

Put another way, you must NOT be one of those old fashioned "God helps them, what helps themselves" sort of people?

Not too many talk about methane emissions from cows any more but isn't that supposed to be a reason that ice is melting?

 

[icehorse]

No I'm not. I heard that joke a while back. It's kind of cute. I believe when Jesus prayed ",Let your kingdom come," there's a lot to that prayer and I'm looking forward to the time it (God's kingdom or rulership) will change things on this earth because....anyway
...it is apparent that mankind cannot/is not doing what is right. Some may try to help others but again, that will not solve the Earth's problems. Plus only God can do away with death. Hope that helps to explain what I believe and hope for.

I'm not sure where you stand on this point, so this might not apply to you. But I do believe that "If you're not helping out, you're part of the problem".

So I think in general that when a person sits on their hands hoping for god to help, that person is a part of the problem.

 

[icehorse]

Not too many talk about methane emissions from cows any more but isn't that supposed to be a reason that ice is melting?

Yes, cow methane is a part of the problem. That's another side effect of too many people on the planet, and another example of greed and corruption also being huge negative influences.

 

[Jimmy]

Through the centuries religious "holy men" have tended to want to keep women and girls as ignorant as possible. When women are girls are given good educations, they tend to have fewer children. A HUGE factor in our current disaster is that there are simply too many people on the planet, and religion and other divisive forces have exacerbated the population problem.

Eh, I think a lot of couples find great joy in raising 2-3 kids at a time. Many like only one. Some none. A lot of accidental pregnancies happen as well. The greatest problem is that we invented technology but it’s also a great blessing. We really didn’t have a choice I don’t think. I think without technology the earth could sustain 8 billion people. So it’s not so much the population as it is the tech. But here we are nonetheless. I’m just glad the USA isn’t like China where your told how many kids you can have.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm not sure where you stand on this point, so this might not apply to you. But I do believe that "If you're not helping out, you're part of the problem".

So I think in general that when a person sits on their hands hoping for god to help, that person is a part of the problem.

I help others when I can. There are many ways of helping. How about you?

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, cow methane is a part of the problem. That's another side effect of too many people on the planet, and another example of greed and corruption also being huge negative influences.

That's part of the point. Do you think people will stop eating beef because they're worried about melting ice? You answered that. Thanks for responding.

 

[icehorse]

I help others when I can. There are many ways of helping. How about you?

Yup, many ways to help. I'm a teacher, focusing on teaching the application of logical and critical thinking skills.