Return of Christ

[Desert Snake]

I believe those who attack Paul and his teachings are in actuality attacking the heart of the gospel message of freedom and life in the power of Jesus Christ alone, the desire being to keep people in deception and bondage, which is truly the work of satan.

Well said.:clap

 

[InChrist]

Is it ok to disagree with Paul?
Or must Paul be accepted as infallible ?

I don't think Paul was bad per say. I think he did what he thought was right. I just don't agree with some of his ideals.

So say a person agrees with Jesus but finds reason to disagree with some of Paul's teachings, would that person still receive salvation.

I think I agree though, Paul elevates Jesus to divinity. Eliminate Paul and Jesus becomes a Rabbi.

Since I believe that salvation is only in Jesus Christ alone, not Paul than I would have to say that if someone agrees with and accepts Jesus then they would receive salvation. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone who agrees with Jesus would disagree with Paul because it was Jesus who chose Paul.

 

[InChrist]

Well said.:clap

If I said anything worthwhile, may the praise go to my Savior.

 

[Ingledsva]

I believe those who attack Paul and his teachings are in actuality attacking the heart of the gospel message of freedom and life in the power of Jesus Christ alone, the desire being to keep people in deception and bondage, which is truly the work of satan.

LOL! I think if the disciples questioned what the "follower's of Jesus killer" who grabbed control - "with a supposed vision on the road," - was teaching, - so can others then, and today.



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[InChrist]

LOL! I think if the disciples questioned what the "follower's of Jesus killer" who grabbed control - "with a supposed vision on the road," - was teaching, - so can others then, and today.



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Of course, anyone may question, but as the scriptures reveal although the other apostles and followers of Jesus were surprised by the change in Saul and questioned they all realized and came to the conclusion that Paul was their beloved brother and fellow servant in Christ.

 

[InChrist]

Just to get this thread back on track, here is an interesting article for anyone to read if you like...


"Those who ignore the study of end times prophecy are fond of quoting this famous line which appears in various forms in Matt. 24:36, Matt. 24:42,44, Matt. 24:50 and Matt 25:13 as their justification. But earlier in the same passage, the Lord had admonished all who would read His words of prophecy to understand them (Matt 24:15) and elsewhere the Apostle Paul wrote that the events leading up to the end of the age should not take believers by surprise (1 Thes 5:4) implying that we should have done enough homework to see them coming..."

No One Knows The Day Or The Hour | GracethrufaithGracethrufaith

 

[Ingledsva]

Of course, anyone may question, but as the scriptures reveal although the other apostles and followers of Jesus were surprised by the change in Saul and questioned they all realized and came to the conclusion that Paul was their beloved brother and fellow servant in Christ.

It does not say that.


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[Call_of_the_Wild]

It does not say that.


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Actually, it does say that.

Acts 9:19-22
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

My goodness Ingle, I guess being wrong all the time doesn't seem to bother you.

 

[InChrist]

It does not say that.


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And along with the passage posted above by Call of the Wild the scriptures also point out that...

Paul spent time interacting with the other apostles. ( 9:26-30; Acts 15:2; Gal. 1:18) in one accord (Acts 15:22), he was gladly received by James and all the elders. (Acts 21:17-18) and Paul was considered beloved by the other apostles (Acts 15:25; 2 Peter 3:15)

 

[Ingledsva]

Actually, it does say that.

Acts 9:19-22
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

My goodness Ingle, I guess being wrong all the time doesn't seem to bother you.

LOL! And where does that say they agreed with him?


They are astonished that the creep chasing them is claiming a vision giving him control.


Winning over Damascus Jews doesn't mean he fooled the disciples.


A few verses later we get this -


Act 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.


Act 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

Act 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.



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[InChrist]

LOL! And where does that say they agreed with him?


They are astonished that the creep chasing them is claiming a vision giving him control.


Winning over Damascus Jews doesn't mean he fooled the disciples.


A few verses later we get this -


Act 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.


Act 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

Act 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.



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Great job of taking verses out of context from the entire passage. The context clearly shows that once the apostles got over their initial surprise and fear they were then unified with Paul in their ministry.

And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. And he declared to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. 28 So he was with them at Jerusalem, coming in and going out. 29 And he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him. 30 When the brethren found out, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him out to Tarsus.31 Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied. Acts 9:26-31

 

[Ingledsva]

Great job of taking verses out of context from the entire passage. The context clearly shows that once the apostles got over their initial surprise and fear they were then unified with Paul in their ministry.

And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. And he declared to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. 28 So he was with them at Jerusalem, coming in and going out. 29 And he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him. 30 When the brethren found out, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him out to Tarsus.31 Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied. Acts 9:26-31

It shows a split in the disciples - as to his trustworthiness. And again - it does not say all the disciples then believed.


The "Hellenists" That tried to KILL him, - are the converts among the Jews who had returned to Judea.


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[InChrist]

It shows a split in the disciples - as to his trustworthiness. And again - it does not say all the disciples then believed.


The "Hellenists" That tried to KILL him, - are the converts among the Jews who had returned to Judea.


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And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. And he declared to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. 28 So he was with them at Jerusalem, coming in and going out. 29 And he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him. 30 When the brethren found out, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him out to Tarsus.31 Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied. Acts 9:26-31

It says Barnabas brought Saul/Paul to the apostles, Paul gave them his testimony of seeing the Lord and how he had preached at Damascus in the name of Jesus. Then it says Paul stayed with them at Jerusalem, coming in and going out. When he spoke with the Hellenists in the name of Jesus and they then attempted to kill him the brethren helped him escape by bringing him down to Caesarea and sending him to Tarsus. Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.

It shows that the Hellenists were is sharp disagreement with the gospel message of Paul and the Apostles. It does not show a split between the apostles and Paul, on the contrary it shows their unity and peace.

 

[Ingledsva]

And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. And he declared to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. 28 So he was with them at Jerusalem, coming in and going out. 29 And he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him. 30 When the brethren found out, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him out to Tarsus.31 Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied. Acts 9:26-31

It says Barnabas brought Saul/Paul to the apostles, Paul gave them his testimony of seeing the Lord and how he had preached at Damascus in the name of Jesus. Then it says Paul stayed with them at Jerusalem, coming in and going out. When he spoke with the Hellenists in the name of Jesus and they then attempted to kill him the brethren helped him escape by bringing him down to Caesarea and sending him to Tarsus. Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.

It shows that the Hellenists were is sharp disagreement with the gospel message of Paul and the Apostles. It does not show a split between the apostles and Paul, on the contrary it shows their unity and peace.

They tried to Kill him - happily ever after is pure bull.


We obviously read that text differently.


Don't you find it a little strange that they only had peace AFTER they sent him away?




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[InChrist]

They tried to Kill him - happily ever after is pure bull.


We obviously read that text differently.


Don't you find it a little strange that they only had peace AFTER they sent him away?




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The "they" who tried to kill Paul were the Hellenists, not the Apostles who were the church leaders in Jerusalem and now the brethren of Paul. Actually, no, it is not strange that there was peace after he was sent away. The peace was the result of the fact that Saul was no longer persecuting these churches, but was now one with them in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ingledsva]

They tried to Kill him - happily ever after is pure bull.


We obviously read that text differently.


Don't you find it a little strange that they only had peace AFTER they sent him away?

The "they" who tried to kill Paul were the Hellenists, not the Apostles who were the church leaders in Jerusalem and now the brethren of Paul. Actually, no, it is not strange that there was peace after he was sent away. The peace was the result of the fact that Saul was no longer persecuting these churches, but was now one with them in Christ Jesus.

Apostles were sent to the group later know as the "Hellenists," too.


Obviously these disciples and their followers, did not believe in Paul.


Apparently they had enough common sense not to trust someone that had tried to Kill Christians, - and was now taking over - "claiming" a vision on the road.


Others were against these new teachings as well -

ACTS 6:8-15 8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. 10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke. 11 Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.” 12 And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon him, seized him, and brought him to the council. 13 They also set up false witnesses who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.”


These and other verses show that Paul was not readily accepted by all.



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[InChrist]

Apostles were sent to the group later know as the "Hellenists," too.


Obviously these disciples and their followers, did not believe in Paul.


Apparently they had enough common sense not to trust someone that had tried to Kill Christians, - and was now taking over - "claiming" a vision on the road.


Others were against these new teachings as well -

ACTS 6:8-15 8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. 10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke. 11 Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.” 12 And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon him, seized him, and brought him to the council. 13 They also set up false witnesses who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.”


These and other verses show that Paul was not readily accepted by all.



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I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. Obviously, Paul, the apostles, and Jesus Himself were not readily accepted by all. That is not news, as this is made clear repeatedly throughout the NT. Yet they were completely on the same page with one another. BTW, this thread is about the Return of Christ, not Paul. So I'll go no further with subject. It was interesting, but off topic.

 

[InChrist]

Just to get this thread back on track again, here is an interesting article for anyone to read if you like...


"Those who ignore the study of end times prophecy are fond of quoting this famous line which appears in various forms in Matt. 24:36, Matt. 24:42,44, Matt. 24:50 and Matt 25:13 as their justification. But earlier in the same passage, the Lord had admonished all who would read His words of prophecy to understand them (Matt 24:15) and elsewhere the Apostle Paul wrote that the events leading up to the end of the age should not take believers by surprise (1 Thes 5:4) implying that we should have done enough homework to see them coming..."

No One Knows The Day Or The Hour | GracethrufaithGracethrufaith

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. Obviously, Paul, the apostles, and Jesus Himself were not readily accepted by all. That is not news, as this is made clear repeatedly throughout the NT. Yet they were completely on the same page with one another. BTW, this thread is about the Return of Christ, not Paul. So I'll go no further with subject. It was interesting, but off topic.

The point is that it is perfectly fine to believe Paul got things wrong, or even purposefully changed things for his own purposes. Obviously some apostles, and disciples believed he was altering the story, and teaching a wrong theology.


One does not have to believe Jesus is God, or part of a trinity, etc. One can believe as these, that God is ONE alone, and that they were altering their Jewish Messiah base.


EDIT -- You took it off topic with this - which I answered -

I believe those who attack Paul and his teachings are in actuality attacking the heart of the gospel message of freedom and life in the power of Jesus Christ alone, the desire being to keep people in deception and bondage, which is truly the work of satan.

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[InChrist]

The point is that it is perfectly fine to believe Paul got things wrong, or even purposefully changed things for his own purposes. Obviously some apostles, and disciples believed he was altering the story, and teaching a wrong theology.*

Okay, it is fine to believe Paul got things wrong, lots of people choose to do so, but that does not make such beliefs correct. The passage previously referenced says nothing about "disciples" though or whether or not some had such thoughts, It does very obviously show that all the Apostles were in agreement with Paul, in that passage and elsewhere in the scriptures.

One does not have to believe Jesus is God, or part of a trinity, etc. One can believe as these, that God is ONE alone, and that they were altering their Jewish Messiah base.

One does not have to believe these things, but those disciples who spent three years with Jesus then becoming the Apostles and leaders of the church in Jerusalem did believe these things, along with Paul. They saw it not as an altering of their Jewish Messiah base, but as a fulfillment and further revelation of the ONE GOD.

EDIT -- You took it off topic with this - which I answered -

I originally responded to someone's previous post which went off on Paul, but I'd rather get back on topic.






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